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peasmould
@comcast.net

peasmould

Anon

New x-10/CFL problem?

Hi! There are hundreds of posts about issues and work-arounds for CFLs running on x-10 controlled circuits, but we have a DIFFERENT PROBLEM. We use x-10 for convenient control of all the OUTSIDE lights. Their x-10 switch modules are inside.

We had no problems until our free State home energy survey last week. Our surveyors came loaded with CFLs and fitted over 40 all over, but only INSIDE the house. None are switched by x-10 modules. We don't like most of them, but that's another story.

The immediate problem is with just one of the outside x-10 switched fixtures (with two 120W halogen flood lights). It switches on seemingly randomly about once each day. We have no way of knowing if it ever switches off, but suspect not. When we find it on, the switch unit is often warm, which means it has been running for quite a long time. It is hard to monitor, as we have to go halfway down the garden to see if it is on in daytime. All this extra power used is wiping out our CFL savings, and these bulbs are high up on one corner of the house – very hard to change. I hate to burn them out prematurely!

So, please, do you have any theories about how these new CFLs could have conspired to take occasional control of an x-10-switched incandescent circuit? And could there be any solution that does not involve going back to all incandescent INDOORS again to save money?!

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

nunya

MVM

CFL's notoriously spew RFI. X-10 is susceptible to RFI. Both products are of dubious quality (CFL and X-10). Yes it's possible that they are interfering with each other. It's also possible the X-10 switching module is simply bad (happens a LOT).
Automate
join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA

Automate to peasmould

Member

to peasmould
Are just using power line X-10 or also radio X-10 devices?
dmagerl
Premium Member
join:2007-08-06
Woodstock, IL

dmagerl to peasmould

Premium Member

to peasmould
CFLs are notorious for not only spraying the powerline with noise, but also acting as X10 signal suckers. In general, X10 and CFLs dont play well together.

However, there are CFLs that are compatible with X10. Just google for "x10 compatible cfl".

They are more expensive than the cheap crap that is normally sold, and you probably will have to change out most if not all of the CFLs already installed, and if you have a lot of CFLs installed, there's no guarantee that taken all together they wont suck up your X10 signal.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to peasmould

Member

to peasmould
How are you switching CFLs in the first place? I thought that X10 modules used triacs and couldn't be used with CFLs.

peasmould
@comcast.net

peasmould

Anon

All the CFLs are being switched with standard house mechanical on/off switches - some one way, some two way.
peasmould

peasmould to dmagerl

Anon

to dmagerl
Thanks! I'm just surprised that "noise" from CFLs can form into a 'signal' for the x-10 switch that looks good enough to pass the code filters in the circuit and be received as a bona fide "M3" signal (or whatever the code is)

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

FCC CAUTION
THIS DEVICE COMPLIES WITH PART 15 OF THE FCC RULES.
OPERATION IS SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING TWO CONDITIONS:
(1) THIS DEVICE MAY NOT CAUSE HARMFUL INTERFERENCE, AND
(2) THIS DEVICE MUST ACCEPT ANY INTERFERENCE RECEIVED, INCLUDING INTERFERENCE THAT MAY CAUSE UNDESIRED OPERATION.

You are probably experiencing the "undesired operation" part.

peasmould
@comcast.net

peasmould to Automate

Anon

to Automate
Thanks! We have radio devices too, but this has happened in periods where they have never been actuated by a radio signal.

I don't think this could be CFL noise triggering a spurious but correctly-formed and coded signal from the receiver (which is on a different circuit, and at least 30 ft away apart, from any of the new CFLs). That's because there are actually two x-10 wall switches on the same code, each switching a single fixture with two outside lights, and only one of them is triggered each time.
peasmould

peasmould to nunya

Anon

to nunya
Thanks! That's probably the easiest thing to try first. I'll just exchange the wall switch unit for a new one, and see if that makes a difference. Obviously, as it wasn't doing this the day before we got all the CFLs, and was a few hours after we got them, I was not thinking to blame the switch. But I see your point - all of this kit seems quite flimsy, and we've had other random failures that did not inspire confidence!

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

4 edits

djrobx to peasmould

Premium Member

to peasmould
I had a whole bunch of X10 stuff. For years I thought I was one of the lucky ones - I never had much trouble with it. Then came CFL. The X10 stuff all became junk, even on seemingly unrelated circuits, and even when I thought all my CFLs were "off". Remember, with X10, all circuits in your home on the same "leg" are "related". They sell repeaters that you can connect to 220v circuits to make it ALL "related". They also sell filters that you can install in your panel, so that your neighbor's homes are NOT related. In other words, even your neighbors' CFLs could be creating trouble for you.

My favorite would be when all the switches would get a random "ALL ON" code and all the bedroom lights would be on full blast at 3AM. Grrr. X10 is an ANCIENT, crude protocol. There's no error correction. It's very easy to randomly generate "valid" x10.

Now I have a whole bunch of Z-wave stuff.

peasmould
@comcast.net

peasmould

Anon

Hi djrobx,
Thanks for the understanding and helpful ideas. We need a new boiler, so the last thing i want right now is having to replace all the x-10 stuff! But it does look like I should be making preparations.
I still think x-10 was a clever idea, but clearly not robust, especially after all the free CFLs added to interfering noise everywhere. Hadn't heard of Z-wave, but will look it up and get ready.
Perhaps then I'll finally be able to use the mains intercoms I bought years ago, which don't work with x-10!
b_p_smith
Premium Member
join:2002-02-13
Merrickville, ON

b_p_smith to peasmould

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to peasmould
I've switched most of my old X-10 crap with Insteon, which I really like. I've heard Z-Wave is also good and popular. Unfortunately, "good" comes at a price. :-(
What I do is watch for any sort of sale (which are few and far between) and buy a couple of items at a time.

My Insteon switches work fine with the new dimmable LED lights, but not so great with dimmable CFL bulbs (not that I'm especially surprised). THis is the one thin I hate about the push to CFLs, is that I'd much rather have a few lights (ie. outside) run at 25% brightness overnight than either ON or OFF.

peasmould
@comcast.net

peasmould

Anon

Thanks b_p,
I'll check out Insteon before we pick anything to replace x-10. It may not need to be as soon as I thought, however. In response to family complaints about insufficient light, gloomy starts and dimmers not working any more, I had to retire a dozen of the new CFLs today, after only a week of trial!