Topic 'Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...' in forum 'All Things Macintosh' - dslreports.com

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 17 Oct 2012 01:23:42 EDT

banditws6 posted :

said by drew:

No issues with the Apple BT keyboard on my iPad 1.

I actually use a Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard with my iPad 1, no joke. It works perfectly, although I've had to "discover" which of the modifier keys (Control, Alt, etc.) had which function on iOS.

When it comes to input lag and other weirdness with the keyboard, I've found almost every time that it comes down to the app I'm using. QuickOffice, for example, is completely unusable with a BT keyboard on the iPad 1 due to massive input delay. DocumentsToGo, on the other hands, works great. The WordPress app used to get extremely laggy once you'd typed more than 3 or 4 paragraphs but I haven't had that problem with the latest version(s) of it.

I've done a fair amount of word processing on the iPad with this keyboard and it's mostly been quite acceptable.
--
"The counsel of fools is all the more dangerous the more of them there are." -�lafr H�skuldsson

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:18:53 EDT

drew posted :

said by Count Zero:

You should check out the Logitech keyboard - I easily type between 60-90wpm on it without lag.

No issues with the Apple BT keyboard on my iPad 1.
--
flickr | 'Cause I've been waiting, all my life just waiting
For you to shine, shine your light on me

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:54:37 EDT

Rob posted : Is there a Lightning to 30 pin adapter? I think a lot of people who have both an iPad and iPhone were happy to be taking just 1 cable with them, and now with the iPhone 5, will need two cables.
--
CheckSite.us | YourIP.us | Reverseip.us

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:55:25 EDT

ptrowski posted :

said by Homunculus:

said by Rambo76098:

Even more reason Apple should have gone with Micro USB like everyone else...

I honestly don't get it. The rest of the industry has standardized on Micro USB, yet Apple won't do it. Not trendy enough for them?

I hate the micro USB plug.

I remember when the original iPod came out... it used Firewire. People got mad. Then they switched to the 30 pin. People got mad. Now we have the Lightning adapter. People are mad.

But in the end, everyone gets over it. :)

There are also millions more iOS devices now though so it is much more of an impact.
--
"So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:40:52 EDT

Homunculus posted :

said by Rambo76098:

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:51:00 EDT

skeechan posted : Everything I read says iOS6 does NOT support APT-X so I am not holding out much hope for the nano.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:49:59 EDT

Count Zero posted : No idea. I have two sets of bluetooth headphones and neither supports it and I'm 99.999% sure that neither of our cars support it either so I wouldn't have a way to test.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:21:22 EDT

HiVolt posted :

said by Count Zero:

I saw that OS X supports apt-X since 10.6.5 somewhere online, hopefully your Nano will too.

Does iOS support it? I have Creative BT speakers that have teh APTX codec, but it required an optional dongle...

It'd be nice if iOS supported it... Maybe iOS6 does?
--

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Sat, 13 Oct 2012 11:05:34 EDT

Count Zero posted : I saw that OS X supports apt-X since 10.6.5 somewhere online, hopefully your Nano will too.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Sat, 13 Oct 2012 09:58:46 EDT

skeechan posted : I have a new Nano coming next week (17th so sayith Amazon) and I wonder what audio profiles it will support. The site just says BT but doesn't say what actual profiles are supported. I'll upgrade to the newer LG headset if the new nano support aptx but if it's still A2DP I won't bother.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:32:01 EDT

Count Zero posted : Yes I mentioned those a while ago - but they're not commonplace and his head unit doesn't support it, I checked that already.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:24:44 EDT

KrK posted :

said by Count Zero:

Again, show me a consumer device that actually plays FULL QUALITY audio over bluetooth.

»www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2···h-update

AptX devices.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:58:06 EDT

BronsCon posted : "The difference between plugging my phone into my stereo or using bluetooth" = line-out vs bluetooth

"plugging in a USB stick [typo corrected]" = plugging in a USB stick, not my phone

Thus the difference, and thus why playing the file directly and playing it over bluetooth sound the same. If you had read my whole post rather than stopping when you thought you had found a flaw in my testing, you'd have probably gotten that without me pointing it out. Can we resume intelligent discussion now?

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:46:38 EDT

Count Zero posted : And if USB and Bluetooth were sending the exact same MP3 I'm very very perplexed as to how BT could sound slightly better...

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:38:49 EDT

Count Zero posted : More than likely you're only hearing the difference between high and medium-low bitrate SBC.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 03:10:41 EDT

TheHarvester posted :

said by Count Zero:

How would you need to buy 4? 1 comes with the phone, 1 for the car and 1 more for work/travel? For over a year you haven't had to plug the phone into the computer to sync so you don't need one for your desk really...

I forgot about one coming with the phone so I would still need to buy at least 3. I manually sync and back up everything and the wireless sync crap would be shut off right away. I don't need nor do I want everything from my phone on all my computers and I sure as hell don't want or need to share all my pictures with everyone. I have so many microUSB cables that I have them everywhere. I have one on my nightstand, one at my main home computer, one at my hobby/telescope/armory computer, one In my truck, one in my telescope laptop bag, two 2 at my work computer and one or two in my cable/charge drawer.
--
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Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:04:03 EDT

BronsCon posted : As I've said in two other posts already in this thread, I can tell the differenece between SBC and MP3, it's a pretty big one. I have a cheapie bluetooth headset (actually a receiver that I can plug headphones into) that I regret buying that only supports SBC and the difference between plugging my good headphones into that vs plugging them directly into my phone is night and day. The difference between plugging my phone into my stereo or using bluetooth is negligible, with bluetooth offering slightly better quality (comparable to plugging un a USB stick and playing the files directly), if anything. That would be because both devices support MP3 as a transport protocol and I happen to be playing MP3s.

That's all the documentation I need.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:48:13 EDT

Count Zero posted : I doubt much has changed in A2DP - but like you I just haven't found a lot of published technical info to really prove or disprove that. The most recent development I'm aware of is the adoption of apt-X codecs in some higher-end bluetooth devices - though it isn't widespread at this time.

I'm not sure which transmitter he was discussing though it seemed to me that he was generalizing to say that "for simplicity or compatibility everyone just uses SBC".

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:37:36 EDT

Thinkdiff posted : That was 2008. I'd be surprised if that's still the case, but maybe.

Edit:
According to this, the issue with those headphone, specifically, is that the included transmitter only supports SBC. It seems if you use them with a MP3-capable transmitter, it'll work properly. So the author's premise may be incorrect due to the crappy transmitter Sony included:
»www.avforums.com/forums/headphon···ity.html
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:34:57 EDT

Count Zero posted : In the article I referenced he pointed out that although the Bluetooth headphones he was discussing supported MP3 over Bluetooth, in practical terms the devices used SBC regardless.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:28:37 EDT

Thinkdiff posted : That's assuming SBC is the only available codec. Why do you claim nothing uses MP3 w/ A2DP?

BronsCon is correct that if the sender and receiver both support MP3 in their bluetooth stack, then it's possible no transcoding takes place (I have no idea if this is how Android does it.. I couldn't find very clear guidelines like that Apple tech document. Android does support SBC/MP3/AAC for A2DP though). You could check by comparing CPU usage while playing an MP3 locally and then playing the same MP3 via BT (more usage may indicate the MP3 is being re-encoded).

If you're using an iOS device, your chances of getting good quality audio over BT is likely much lower as only AAC at a specific bitrate is supported. So your only options are re-encoded AAC or SBC, depending on the receiver. I bought a $10 bluetooth receiver off eBay awhile ago for use with my iPhone. Unsurprisingly, it sounded like shit (most likely only supported SBC).
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:22:26 EDT

Count Zero posted : Except it isn't being sent that way. You're making false assumptions. »soundexpert.org/news/-/blogs/blu···ity-a2dp

Notice that even though many devices support MP3 and other codecs, in practical use nothing uses it. Your device maybe transcoding to a 320 kb stream, but it's still re-encoding the file.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:40:47 EDT

BronsCon posted : Yes, that's right, I can tell when a file has been transcoded, usually including the from and to which codec, often down to which encoder was used, but my ears are the reason I can't tell the difference between bluetooth and analog. It has nothing to do with the *fact* that the audio is being sent without transcoding; nope, that can't have anything to do with it.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:28:24 EDT

Count Zero posted : whatever, if you're saying that your audio equipment, your sound files or your ears cannot discriminate between BT and wired audio then fine.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:51:42 EDT

BronsCon posted : Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

If I wanted concert quality sound, I'd be recording from virgin vinyl at 24-bit 96khz, to be played back from an SSD installed in a vehicle-mounted PC connected directly to a pair of $5k 2Kw digital amps powering an array of speakers costing no less than $20k.

But, since I just want to enjoy my music without having to fiddle with cables or spend 3mo salary, Bluetooth works great.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:46:42 EDT

Goober posted : I have to admit I like the technical discussion going on. But at the end of the day, if the music sounds good for us, that's all we care about. And typically whether we're in the car or at home, we rip at a high enough bitrate that the sound quality is pretty good throughout. I went and did a huge purge of everything that was lower than 256 kbps. Most everything we have now is at 320 kbps. Good enough for us. Again, we're not audiophiles.
--
�The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." - Barack Obama, UN Speech 9/25/2012. Ever hear of the First Amendment, BO? Vote Romney/Ryan and take America back.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:11:24 EDT

BronsCon posted :

said by Goober:

Our headend supports AAC/MP3/MP4/WMA. All I know is that I can't tell the difference between AAC and MP3 (haven't play WMA files) audio in our car. No one else can either. My guess is that the BT is carrying the data and the HE is decoding, just as you say.

Being an early-adopter (I've been ripping my own CDs since before MP3 was even a thing) I've become quite familiar with transcoding artifacts, even when re-encoding to the same format and bitrate with an encoder that's tweaked slightly differently, and I've become quite good at recognizing them. It's funny that people on these boards assume that anyone who disagrees with them is simply uneducated or inexperienced, but given my own experience, I'm going to assume you are similarly experienced when you make these statements.

Just another case of projection -- "It's what I'd do, so it must be what everyone does."

But, then, you've been around here long enough to know how dangerous it is to make contradictory statements on these boards.

Back on topic, I think the argument being posed was "just because it's possible doesn't mean it's happening; and because I've never seen it and you can't prove it, it's not happening", which we both know is a BS argument. Thanks for the backup and good luck standing against the onslaught of argument you'll see for it. :)

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:52:31 EDT

Goober posted : Our headend supports AAC/MP3/MP4/WMA. All I know is that I can't tell the difference between AAC and MP3 (haven't play WMA files) audio in our car. No one else can either. My guess is that the BT is carrying the data and the HE is decoding, just as you say.
--
�The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." - Barack Obama, UN Speech 9/25/2012. Ever hear of the First Amendment, BO? Vote Romney/Ryan and take America back.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:21:10 EDT

BronsCon posted : I understand the difference between playback and transfer codecs and how bluetooth in general works, but thanks for the explanation for anyone who may not.

The example I gave earlier (to which I was still referring) involved an Android phone marketed for its media support and an automotive head unit, so arbitrarily limiting the discussion to AAC at that point really does nothing.

The fact is, a good player will, assuming the playback and transfer codecs are the same, not even bother transcoding and will just send the raw data, which the receiver will decode and play. Since I know my head unit supports WMA, MP3, and PCM as playback and transfer codecs (WMA? really? okay, I'd be less than surprised to find out that nothing else supports that for transfer, because... WHY?!) and I built my music collection out of 320k VBR MP3s based on the fact that my previous head unit supported MP3 but not AAC (via USB or files burned to a CD), coupled with the fact that my phone supports MP3 (possibly PCM, as well, but in this scenario there's no way to tell if it's using it) as a transfer codec, it doesn't matter whether I put the files on a USB stick and plug them into my head unit or stream them over bluetooth, the decoding will be done by the head unit and there will be no loss of quality.

Would I have preferred to use AAC? No, not really, because it's not as widely supported for playback and I don't care how good a codec sounds if I can't hear it. Even my Pioneer head unit, one step down from the top of the line of the current generation, which has full iPhone support doesn't support AAC; it pulls an audio stream, transcoded into a different format (probably MP3) because, as discussed several threads ago, USB doesn't handle analog audio -- so if my head unit doesn't handle AAC, how's it play iPod audio?

Docking isn't always better. Just sayin'.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:20:01 EDT

Michail posted :

said by skeechan:

Haven't messed with Airsync that much other than just try it out with airplay and a movie file I already had on my tablet. I haven't tried streaming another stream.

I contacted their support and they said that they are evaluating adding in Airplay as a system output for android devices.

That would be cool when/if they do. BT and DLNA suck horribly compared to Airplay.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:42:01 EDT

Thinkdiff posted :

said by BronsCon:

Any device intended for music playback is going to support, at a minimum, MP3. Any device I've ever used as anything more than a glorified headset or speakerphone has supported codecs other than SBC; it's not hard to tell.

The playback codec is different from the codecs used in A2DP. MP3 is an optional codec, and it's not enough for the receiver to support it. The sender must, too.

In the case of iOS, it appears only AAC and SBC are supported. I suspect it would be difficult to figure out the percentage of A2DP receivers that support AAC.
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:37:30 EDT

Count Zero posted : Probably, and not at a rate higher than 320kbps - but not a lossless format so any music from your device will require that it be re-encoded for BT and overall disappointing quality/

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:12:37 EDT

BronsCon posted :

said by Count Zero:

Nice wikipedia quote. That means IT CAN but does not enforce the support for all of those profiles except SBC (low quality profile).

--PEACE

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:47:24 EDT

Count Zero posted : I believe you are right about A2DP always re-encoding the audio - regardless of the source - and as well all know going from one lossy format to another will always result in some degradation of audio quality.

I think at the present time that would require the head unit to have a wifi link to your device - though maybe that will change in the future as the newer generations of BT do support higher data rates and there were rumors of future support for AirPlay over bluetooth on Macrumors some time ago as I recall..

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:38:23 EDT

Thinkdiff posted :

said by Count Zero:

That may well be part of my problem with A2DP but I find very limited information out there about what formats different devices support over BT/A2DP. Also if you have a significant amount of music in ALAC then no BT profile will support the playback of that and it will always be re-converted to something else of lower quality.

I believe all audio is re-encoded when using A2DP, so the original codec is irrelevant.

If you're not happy with 132kbps AAC audio and you have an iOS device, then you'll never be happy with Bluetooth audio, regardless of the receiving device. That's all it supports (unless I'm reading that specifications document wrong).

Look for speakers/receivers that support Airplay for full quality (it uses ALAC). Who knows, maybe they'll start including it in cars.
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:34:54 EDT

Count Zero posted : That may well be part of my problem with A2DP but I find very limited information out there about what formats different devices support over BT/A2DP. Also if you have a significant amount of music in ALAC then no BT profile will support the playback of that and it will always be re-converted to something else of lower quality.

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:31:24 EDT

Count Zero posted : Nice wikipedia quote. That means IT CAN but does not enforce the support for all of those profiles except SBC (low quality profile).

--PEACE