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james1979
Premium
join:2012-10-09
Quinault, WA

Gen 4 cable question

Hi,

10 years ago, a DW4000 system was installed at my house. The DW4000 transmitter and dish are currently paired with an HN7000s. I am scheduled to have Gen 4 installed in a couple of days (Oct. 12). I am currently on Spaceway 2 (longitude 99 degrees W). Since the Gen 4 satellite is at 107 W, I think that the Gen 4 installer(s) can "physically" use one of the existing cables. My question is would this be a good idea or should I insist on using a new cable?

The cable I am currently using has the following printed on it:

Laser DUC RG-6 Coaxial Cable 18 AWG 750 Ohm 2,250 MHz 0942 Ft

I don't doubt that the installer(s) will have an opinion, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

Thanks.



Kman08

@184.21.45.x

I am pretty sure you should be using 3Ghz RG6 now. I am now on Exede, but I am indeed using the same cable I had, but it was brand new RG6 dual core 3Ghz stuff. How old is that cable? Does anyone install that type any longer? Even Dish was using the 3Ghz stuff now for TV. That almost sounds like my old Dish cable specifications.



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to james1979

Spaceway2 is a Ka-band satellite, the HN7000S system is only used with Ku-band satellites. So one of your two opening statements is incorrect. But it's academic, because the satellite location has absolutely nothing to do with what cable is used. What's more important is the age and type.

First, that cable you ID'd isn't on the Hughes-approved list. It does however satisfy the freq response requirement, but I doubt it has a solid copper center conductor. Plus, time takes a toll on cable, especially if it isn't in conduit. Additionally, Gen4 only requires one cable now, so I strongly recommend you abandon the old dual cable run in favor of a new Hughes-approved 3GHz/solid copper cable. Quad shield isn't necessary unless you have known RFI in the area. If any of it goes underground, using flooded cable will also save you money on conduit. I personally use Belden 1829BC. If you don't bury, 1829AC is the same stuff without the flooding.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


One More Too

join:2010-09-09
Galena, IL
reply to james1979

said by james1979:

Hi,

I am currently on Spaceway 2 (longitude 99 degrees W).

I don't believe that you are getting your Hughes service via Spaceway 2. While Spaceway 2 is at 99.2 degrees W and was originally intended for use by Hughes, since 2006, it has been used by DIRECTV for broadcasting HD local channels, and Hughes has no presence whatever on the satellite.

Spaceway 3, on the other hand, which is at 95 degrees W, has been used by Hughes to provide 9000 system/Ka service.


Kman08

@184.21.45.x
reply to grohgreg

You can use the dual core RG6 cable. It works just fine. And if you are like me and just buried brand new conduit and line you can use the other leg as a spare for testing or replacement later. The old line will work with both Exede and Gen 4. I would however recommend replacing it to a better standard. Such as the newer 3Ghz stuff is.


C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY

If the old line is in good condition, meets specs, and is of quality, then keep it. It's nice having that secondary feed on the newer system in the event that you do need to test a different line for potential issues with your normal line.



james1979
Premium
join:2012-10-09
Quinault, WA
reply to james1979

OK, I now understand that I cannot currently be using Spaceway 2 with my HN7000s. However, according to my System Control Center, my DW4000 transmitter/dish is using "some" satellite located at longitude 99 degrees west, and yes, it does say "Ku Band - QPSK".

The reason that I mentioned the location of the current satellite that I am using is that the azimuth for my ZIP (98575) and my satellite is approximately 130 degrees. The azimuth for the Gen 4 system will be approximately 140 degrees. I am hoping that the installer(s) will be able to install the Gen 4 dish in the same general location; otherwise Gen 4 may not be feasible for me. (My house is a complicated install since it has a metal roof and is surrounded by trees and mountains.)

The cable was installed in March 2003 and is not in a conduit. Based upon your helpful replies, I will request a modern cable and hope the installer(s) are not annoyed with me. My DW4000->DW6000->HNS7000s system has performed reliably for nearly 10 years, and I want to be favorably impressed with the Gen 4 system as well!


A Tech

join:2008-11-10
reply to james1979

The installer is not paid to change your cable. He is paid to change your dish if necessary and he takes pics to prove it, change the modem, and change the transmitter, point and make if fly. If there is anything else needed HN is not paying for it.

On most of the cable I have seen, which includes P10 cable and practically no other. The solid copper center conductor will have a UL approval rating. ( UL) on the label.

Point is. when I don't see the (UL) I start inspecting the center conductor.

I think all the cables are sweep tested to 3 ghz by requirement now. My suggestion is offer to pay the man to change it.


C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY

Don't know where you get your information, but all installers are required to run new cable if needed (old cable is bad, or doesn't meet HN standards for the system being upgraded to) at no extra cost as it is included in the standard install procedure. Even if it is an upgrade.



james1979
Premium
join:2012-10-09
Quinault, WA
reply to A Tech

said by A Tech:

The installer is not paid to change your cable. He is paid to change your dish if necessary and he takes pics to prove it, change the modem, and change the transmitter, point and make if fly. If there is anything else needed HN is not paying for it.

Thanks for that information! I actually anticipated an extra charge and went to an ATM today and withdrew $xxx just in case. My concern about an extra charge was primarily due to the fact that my dish is mounted to a tree. I did contact the dealer and explained that they would need to bring a pole and concrete. I asked if there would be an extra charge for a proper pole mount. I was told that there would be no extra charge for a pole mount. We'll see about that...

C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY

When my installer installed my Gen4 dish, he said poles are standard now and not charged, but, that could just be my installer, or for other reasons... >_


zeddlar

join:2007-04-09
Jay, OK
Reviews:
·exede by ViaSat
·McDonald County ..

I read somewhere in HN's official install crap on one of their webpages about a year or so ago that pole mounts are not only included but recomended if I remember correctly and I also remember that it said that the dish, pole, cables, modem, instaltion and testing of the modem and standard labor required to do the instalation were incuded in the instalation charge. This doesn't require the installer having to go to extreme measures to do an istalation such as doing a roof mout on a very steep roof or digging in bedrock to place a pole and so on. The installer can charge labor fees for things like this.
--
HughesNet elite plan/.74 dish w/1watt trans. / 9000 modem / 3 computers on a linksy's wired network



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to A Tech

said by A Tech:

My suggestion is offer to pay the man to change it.

My suggestion is that you update your personal knowledge base. Very little you just wrote is consistent with current/effective Hughes FSBs.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012

montana_sat
Premium
join:2005-12-05
Kalispell, MT
reply to zeddlar

Pole mounts are only "included" in a standard installation when it is the ONLY option. If a customer simply doesn't want the antenna mounted on his home, and there is a feasible location on the home, the pole mount is then "non-standard" and is billable to the customer.



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

said by montana_sat:

Pole mounts are only "included" in a standard installation when it is the ONLY option. If a customer simply doesn't want the antenna mounted on his home, and there is a feasible location on the home, the pole mount is then "non-standard" and is billable to the customer.

I have no argument with that policy in principle. But who's the arbiter when there's a disagreement between the customer and the installer regarding the "ONLY" part?

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012

C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY
reply to montana_sat

Maybe that's why they said my pole was standard... Only one safe place for an installer to mount a dish on my house with out a 200 foot run of cable, and that is taken by my HN9000 unit... Rest of the home is either out of LOS, or too dangerous for a technician to get to for mounting a dish... Pretty sure they don't want to fall 2 floor levels to the ground off a steep roof that you can barely hang onto.... Not to mention, local building codes prohibit roof mounts of that nature, as does my home owners insurance.


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to james1979

Pole mounts on upgrades can be charged to the customer. It says so right on the paperwork. The max charge is not to exceed $125.


C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY

Stardust3 I have my paperwork right here, it states the following.

"Standard Installation INCLUDES:
-Antenna mounting. The installer will determine a line of sight from a location on your home to the satellite and mount the satellite antenna there using a tri-mast roof/wall mount.
-Installation of cable from antenna (outside) to the modem using a single point of entry into the room where the modem is located. The cable will enter through the exterior wall, and terminate on the adjacent interior wall with a wall plate jack in the room where the modem is located.
-Cables to connect the modem to the wall plate jack. The receive cable will be marked with red tape.
-If there is no line of sight to the satellite from an approved structure that can support a tri-mast roof/wall mount then the installer will, with the customers permission, install a pole mount that meets HughesNet specifications no further than 25 feet from the home. A pole mount will be used only when it's the remaining option to provide high speed internet.
-Grounding the antenna to a ground point to an NEC approved bonding point
-Compression fittings with dielectric grease and weather seal at all outdoor connection points."

Now, the company says XXX amount of cash for standard install. When they say that, and the paper work I have to sign off, if a pole is elected by the installer and home owner, then the installer can not charge the home owner, nor can hughesnet, as it is considered a standard item now.

Now, with that said, there have been cases where a 7000 or 9000 user has gone to Gen4, and because of LOS issues to the new bird, have had to get a pole put in. This still counts as standard install, as they are paying for a standard install fee.


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state

For a new customer it is included. Not on upgrades.

C/P below

Non Standard Installation options:
The cost of labor and material for a .74m Pole Mount with 25ft of soft ground trenching - total cost is not to exceed $125 total.
Customers have the option to purchase the following non standard extra products and services directly from the independent HughesNet installer in order to customize their HughesNet installation.
Wired/Wireless router. This device is necessary to network multiple computers to the internet through the HughesNet modem. A router is not included in a standard HughesNet installation.
Most independent HughesNet installers charge a small fee for networking multiple computers. Sometimes this fee is included in the purchase price of the wireless router.
Customer Questions about the Order or physical installation can be immediately reviewed by calling the HughesNet Support Line at xxx-xxx-xxxx


C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY

Yet, mine states that is standard. Also, yours does not state any difference between upgrade/new install. Just that yours is showing it is a "Non Standard Installation Option". Do I really have to scan my stupid work order in?


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state

Look I'm not trying start an argument. That is what it is for customers upgrading. Paperwork for a new customer looks the way your post does. There is no pole mount charge for a new customer, upgrades are totally different.


C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY

1 edit

Seems strange upgrades would be limited in that way... Would almost be shooting someone in the foot... I believe ya for the most part since I guess your an installer, but I am trying to figure out why my installer said that they are all standard now if needed, and why my paperwork shows what it does.

I guess when the installer prints the work order out, depending on the order type selected, it can have the standard install changed up?


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state

Did you upgrade or were you a new customer? Beta testers had orders that appeared to be a new install/customer & paid as such.


montana_sat
Premium
join:2005-12-05
Kalispell, MT
reply to grohgreg

said by grohgreg:

I have no argument with that policy in principle. But who's the arbiter when there's a disagreement between the customer and the installer regarding the "ONLY" part?
//greg//

Well... since I'm the certified installer and I am suppose to know what I'm doing, and since a pole mounts cost me more time and money than wall or roof mounts, I'd have to say that choice is up the "the installer!" If a customer wants a pole mount "just because" and doesn't really need one to get line-of-site, then I bill for it or give them the option to do their own pole mount. I do my best to have happy customers, and I often do small non-standard tasks at no charge, but we don't make enough on an install as it is to be doing pole mounts just for esthetics! And I was also told that any upgrades that require moving the antenna, and / or pole mount installations for line-of-site to the new satellites are billable to the customer also.

C0RR0SIVE

join:2012-06-19
Salvisa, KY
reply to james1979

It is somewhat sad to hear that Hughesnet does this in the end to upgrade customers... I don't know for sure, but if I remember right, upgrade customers have to pay the huge install fee, while new customers get discounts, yet, installers get less on an upgrade site, and have to charge customers for poles... Sigh... You think a company would do what they could to keep old customers that wanna go to something new. I am pleased with HN, just expected more of the company as a whole...

I will say this, I rather liked my Gen4 installers, did a great job, ran into an issue with validating the install, got that solved in 20 minutes after they made a call, and had the system up and running quickly. I think it's rather nice it is single cable though, new transmitter is also rather nice, from the way it looked, it didn't have as many points for it to leak like older units did.


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to montana_sat

said by montana_sat:

said by grohgreg:

I have no argument with that policy in principle. But who's the arbiter when there's a disagreement between the customer and the installer regarding the "ONLY" part?
//greg//

Well... since I'm the certified installer and I am suppose to know what I'm doing, and since a pole mounts cost me more time and money than wall or roof mounts, I'd have to say that choice is up the "the installer!" If a customer wants a pole mount "just because" and doesn't really need one to get line-of-site, then I bill for it or give them the option to do their own pole mount. I do my best to have happy customers, and I often do small non-standard tasks at no charge, but we don't make enough on an install as it is to be doing pole mounts just for esthetics! And I was also told that any upgrades that require moving the antenna, and / or pole mount installations for line-of-site to the new satellites are billable to the customer also.

I completely agree being a certified installer myself. I walk a thin line every time I roll up on a job. Being professional & courteous are my top priorities, while also protecting my bottom line at the same time. I also do many small non standard tasks at no charge. A lot of it boils down to the customer. Demanding & uncooperative gets you no where fast, then it's all business.....

A Tech

join:2008-11-10
reply to james1979

What a can of worms. I am sure glad I am mostly upgrading accounts I originally put in.



james1979
Premium
join:2012-10-09
Quinault, WA
reply to james1979

HughesNet emailed me the following link when I upgraded to Gen 4:

»legal.hughesnet.com/installation···ines.cfm

The "Residential Upgrade" link includes "Cabling replacement and dish relocation will be included if necessary to restore service. Non-standard charges may apply." But that's not for a Gen 4 upgrade, so they're not really telling their customers what to expect. I was also told to contact the dealer if I had any questions. As I have already said, I did contact the dealer and was told that a new pole mount would be included in my free standard installation. (But I didn't speak to the installer himself.)

Given that I've been a good customer of HughesNet for so long, and since I got my neighbors off AOL 6 years ago and onto HughesNet, and since I arranged a same day upgrade to Gen 4 for my neighbors and myself, I expect HughesNet to treat us well. I am going to request an approved cable for my Gen 4 system. If I am asked to pay extra for a proper installation, I will, but I will also contact HughesNet and request that they reimburse me.

I'll report back how things go tomorrow. (I don't expect any problems other than heavy rain and no visibility of the mountains.)



History

@direcway.com
reply to A Tech

In two weeks I will be CUTTING the HughesNet Cable permanently.

Charter Internet Service has finely came to the Rescue!

It will be so satisfying to finely be able to tell HughesNet were to shove there dish!



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to stardust3

said by montana_sat:

Well... since I'm the certified installer

said by stardust3:

I completely agree being a certified installer myself.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with either of you, but neither answered my "who's the arbiter" question. Because it just seems to me that there should be some impartial 3rd party that can settle a legitimate customer/installer disagreement. Or are you both actually saying that it's your way or the highway?

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012