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skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
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reply to Count Zero

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

The problem with consumer audio is they don't see the 'reference' bandwidth. They dumb down throughput to ensure reliability, thus bit rates that are in the crapper. So you end up with 64kbps or 128kbps audio if you are lucky.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
I've never had quality issues with bluetooth at any reasonable range (anywhere in my apartment, for example, where I've used Bluetooth for nearly double the typical "it works within 10 meters" range with no issues) except in an electronics store, where I'd get cut-outs if I stepped more than 5ft from the source. It takes a pretty saturated spectrum to cause problems in the real world.

I use it all the time, with decent equipment, and there is no discernible difference between bluetooth, line-out, or playing the file directly on the receiver in well over 99% of cases.

The 3mbps channel gives up 900kbps for the overhead and retransmits you mention, which is why 2.1mbps remains for application usage.


skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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Even on my crappy stuff, I can readily tell the difference between BT audio and wired lossless but then my BT stuff only supports the A2DP profile like just about everything else.

I'll cheer BT audio when it's lossless.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Maybe your crappy stuff compresses to 64kbps, but my non-crappy stuff does not.


skeechan
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Lots of stuff, particularly headsets and even OS X default to 64kbps.
If you try and ramp up the bitpool, connectivity goes to crap.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon
What non-crappy stuff THAT YOU USE does not compress?


skeechan
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join:2012-01-26
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·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS
Thinking of compression, my Airplay devices don't compress, they use ALAC for transport...well it's compression but lossless compression then TOSlink from the APX Airplay receiver to my Denon. I'd like to have airplay headphones, that would be cool.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
reply to Count Zero
One example, my HTC One X and Pioneer DEH-P8400BH seem to do just fine. Now, the cheapie $20 bluetooth headset I bought definitely compresses.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
reply to skeechan
Airplay would be great if it worked with non-Apple devices.


skeechan
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join:2012-01-26
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Reviews:
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·Verizon FiOS
It works with non-Apple devices, they just have to be licensed; iTunes on Windows to an Airplay equipped Denon for example. In the car I just use wired iPod connectivity with a 240GB iPod video, plenty of space for my ALAC library. I don't bother with BT for audio in the car.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Sorry, I wasn't clear. What non iPod player can I use as a source?


skeechan
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Airsync for Android can do it but I've only used it with AppleTV. I've never tried it with other Airplay stuff.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Good to know, thanks


skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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·Clear Wireless
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·Verizon FiOS
But I don't know if it uses the same protocol, that it is the same lossless transport etc, or if they're just tricking an AppleTV into thinking Android is a "real" airplay source. I just tried it playing a movie for a few minutes from my Transformer and it seemed to work okay.

I just looked at the site they mention it doesn't work with Airport Express which is what I use to stream audio from my Mac's iTunes library to my Denon HT receiver. So something is amiss but obviously they are working on that kind of support.

Airsync does it, so there are probably other apps in the Play Store doing it too, maybe with even better support.


Michail
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
kudos:1
Do you know if Airsync works with Rhapsody, Spotify and Pandora?


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon
Listen haven't not heard those two together I cannot definitively say what they sound like.

HOWEVER

Full quality audio will always be better than re-compressed audio and from what I could tell about the devices from the tech specs published online they're sending the audio over A2DP probably re-compressing to a 128kbps audio stream which (1) further degrades the quality of your original media & (2) consumes battery power to do unless you're plugged in - and then you might as well just stream the audio over your USB connection.

Granted cars aren't the best audio platforms in general but I have a 2010 Subaru Outback with the 440W Harmon Kardon stereo with a parametric EQ. I tuned the stereo using pink noise and some settings I found online and it's much better now than when I first got it - but when I drive I notice a significant difference in the clarity and the accuracy of the music between BT and USB. It may be that I listen to a lot of jazz and indie music where that is more noticeable but this is just an example of why I think saying "you can just stream it on bluetooth" is not as good.
Expand your moderator at work


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Count Zero

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Yes, uncompressed will always sound better than compressed, and a ~1.4mbps uncompressed CD-quality stereo audio stream (16bits per channel, 2 channels, 44100 samples per channel per second, do the math) will fit into the available 2.1mbps of BT2.1+EDR with plenty of room to spare. You can retransmit 50% of the packets before there's any issue.


skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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join:2012-01-26
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reply to Michail
Haven't messed with Airsync that much other than just try it out with airplay and a movie file I already had on my tablet. I haven't tried streaming another stream.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
reply to Anon
said by Count Zero:

Listen having not heard those two together I cannot definitively say what they sound like.

HOWEVER

Full quality audio will always be better than re-compressed audio and from what I could tell about the devices from the tech specs published online they're sending the audio over A2DP probably re-compressing to a 128kbps audio stream which (1) further degrades the quality of your original media & (2) consumes battery power to do unless you're plugged in - and then you might as well just stream the audio over your USB connection.

Granted cars aren't the best audio platforms in general but I have a 2010 Subaru Outback with the 440W Harmon Kardon stereo with a parametric EQ. I tuned the stereo using pink noise and some settings I found online and it's much better now than when I first got it - but when I drive I notice a significant difference in the clarity and the accuracy of the music between BT and USB. It may be that I listen to a lot of jazz and indie music where that is more noticeable but this is just an example of why I think saying "you can just stream it on bluetooth" is not as good.

We have a 600W HK in our car. We don't sit around comparing sound quality. We BT with the device of whichever person's turn it is to get their music played and enjoy what we're hearing. It's good enough for a drive.
--
“The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." - Barack Obama, UN Speech 9/25/2012. Ever hear of the First Amendment, BO? Vote Romney/Ryan and take America back.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Bingo. It's great to just get in the car, forget I even have my phone in my pocket, and just switch tracks using the radio controls.


skeechan
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I have thousands of tracks, I need playlist controls and I haven't seen an OEM automaker BT system that gives you that kind of control from the head unit. My 5-series can index through tracks using BT for example, but I don't have access to playlists on my Galaxy player. The handsfree BT doesn't integrate for voice control of the Galaxy player (so I can't just call for a playlist). I don't know if that is a byproduct of Samsung abandoning the player to Gingerbread the day it came out or what. It basically makes it a giant CD player with a gazillion tracks which is pretty worthless. The iPod control mimics the screen of the iPod including album art.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Hmm... As much as it pains me to say it (not a Ford man), Ford might have the best OEM BT on the market. I wouldn't know, though; I don't usually keep an OEM stereo for long.


skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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join:2012-01-26
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I never have a car that a non-OEM head unit would look decent in.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon
while that's theoretically possible - it isn't actually utilized in any real world applications I've seen.

Light travel is theoretically possible -- no one uses it. See the similarity there?


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to skeechan
My wife's 2012 IS 350C can do it over BT from her iPhone - a first in our experience too!


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Count Zero
said by Count Zero:

while that's theoretically possible - it isn't actually utilized in any real world applications I've seen.

Light travel is theoretically possible -- no one uses it. See the similarity there?

Yup, you've never seen either, so both must not exist.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon
My car can do that over USB or BT from the steering wheel.

But on long drives I get annoyed at the lower quality of BT. I guess I consider myself something of an audiophile and if I'm going to pay for high end stereo equipment I don't see a point in feeding it lower quality audio to play.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon
Again, show me a consumer device that actually plays FULL QUALITY audio over bluetooth.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
said by Count Zero:

Again, show me a consumer device that actually plays FULL QUALITY audio over bluetooth.

Let's go for a drive, then. I've already given you an example, but since you insist on seeing it with your own eyes, I suspect you'll be visiting the bay area this weekend?