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Goggalor
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reply to Krisnatharok

Re: hype hype hype hype hype hype hype hype hype

said by Krisnatharok:

If you want to continue to contribute to this thread's post count by calling Roberts a fraud, go for it. $10 million says you're wrong.

(In announcer-type voice): And a great volley by KrisN. Let's see if Kaltes can return it!

Moos
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reply to Kaltes
said by Kaltes:

If this is gameplay footage rendered in real time, which is exactly what Roberts is saying, then he has managed to make a game that looks far better than anything else on the market, even games made by developers with far greater talent, far more experience, and bigger budgets than what he has to work with. This includes the developer who actually made the engine he is using.

You can either believe that this guy is a tech genius who can break all the rules every other developer has to play by, or you can recognize a new Peter Molyneux when you see one.

I dont know why it's so hard to believe. It looks about on par with this.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ffBZI5 ··· fBZI5PpM


Krisnatharok
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reply to Goggalor
said by Goggalor:

said by Krisnatharok:

If you want to continue to contribute to this thread's post count by calling Roberts a fraud, go for it. $10 million says you're wrong.

(In announcer-type voice): And a great volley by KrisN. Let's see if Kaltes can return it!

He shouldn't run an XL when I crit his RT.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


TigerLord
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reply to Goggalor

Re: Star Citizen

Lol


TigerLord
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reply to Kaltes

Re: hype hype hype hype hype hype hype hype hype

said by Kaltes:

If this is gameplay footage rendered in real time, which is exactly what Roberts is saying, then he has managed to make a game that looks far better than anything else on the market, even games made by developers with far greater talent, far more experience, and bigger budgets than what he has to work with.

Making spaceships look good is not that difficult. Freespace 2 looked years ahead of other games at the time.

Your dislike of Roberts appears irrational so I'd rather not fuel it further.

If you wish to keep bashing CR I don't really care, personally I look forward to it so much nobody will kill the hopes for me


Kaltes
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reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

If you want to continue to contribute to this thread's post count by calling Roberts a fraud, go for it. $10 million says you're wrong.

I didn't call him a fraud, I called him Peter Molyneux. lol

But seriously, you think the fact that he generated hype and got piles of cash based on promises and trailers is proof that he... isn't a fraud? I'd be wrong if he went to E3 and showed that level of graphics being rendered in real time on a machine there, but he didn't. He released a trailer and claimed it was basically scripted gameplay footage, no proof, just "trust me".

said by Krisnatharok:

Today's Titan will be tomorrow's GTX 870. Do you remember the Samaritan demo that came out over two years ago? That was rendered in real time (on one or two GTX 680s I believe) and it blew people's minds.


1. The problem with that is, what proof do you have it wasn't pre-rendered, other than the word of honor of the people who made it? If I was going to make a tech demo that looked like a pre-rendered trailer, I would prove it was legitimate by not making the thing 100% scripted. Show it being responsive to user input. If it is 100% scripted, it is indistinguishable from pre-rendered. Considering how often gaming companies have been caught lying in the past, the burden of proof is on them. I'm not going to just take their word for it.

2. That trailer doesn't look that impressive. Yeah, it was 2011, but cutscenes have looked that good since before 2011. All that demo tells me is that by 2011, multiple SLI'd top end graphics cards were REALLY powerful, which I already knew.

said by Moos:

I dont know why it's so hard to believe. It looks about on par with this.

1. How do you know that tech trailer isn't pre-rendered?

2. How do you know, even if it was rendered in real-time, that it was rendered with hardware that wasn't ridiculously powerful and unrepresentative of what consumers actually use?

3. I've looked at Crysis3 gameplay, that game only came out a few months ago, and that game's actual gameplay looks nowhere near as good as the Star Citizen trailer, even though Crysis 3 should, by all rights, look far better than anything Star Citizen could muster by this point.

said by TigerLord:

Your dislike of Roberts appears irrational so I'd rather not fuel it further.

Uh huh... I guessss that's what a fanboy would say, just because I voiced some skepticism of what is easily the most overhyped game out there in development right now. I don't dislike Molyneux either, on a personal level.

I think some of you want this game to be what is promised so bad that it can turn into something like a Nigerian email scam, where you want it to be true, so you ignore that little voice in your head saying "this is too good to be true".

I didn't listen to that voice once, and now I have a copy of Diablo 3 sitting in a box somewhere that's been gathering dust for more than a year. If one person sees the light, and decides not to lay down that $250 for some premium ship, or an extra $50 to start off with extra "spacebux" or whatever, then it will have been worth it.


Krisnatharok
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Other than now calling into question the truthfulness of the folks behind the Unreal tech demo, when you have no evidence other than your desire to deter people from supporting Star Citizen (and indeed, you should feel obligated to decry any snazzy looking tech demo under the auspices of suspected fraud on the part of the developer), you have no real argument, just a bunch of (potentially) emotionally-biased fallacies:

Ad ignorantiam, begging the question, confusing association with causation, straw man--this one has them all (no one claimed that hype and piles of cash makes you genuine--look at...any celebrity ever):

said by Kaltes:

But seriously, you think the fact that he generated hype and got piles of cash based on promises and trailers is proof that he... isn't a fraud?

Contrast effect bias:

said by Kaltes:

I didn't listen to that voice once, and now I have a copy of Diablo 3 sitting in a box somewhere that's been gathering dust for more than a year.

Mirror imaging:

said by Kaltes:

I think some of you want this game to be what is promised so bad that it can turn into something like a Nigerian email scam, where you want it to be true, so you ignore that little voice in your head saying "this is too good to be true".

Personal crusade/jihad:

said by Kaltes:

If one person sees the light, and decides not to lay down that $250 for some premium ship, or an extra $50 to start off with extra "spacebux" or whatever, then it will have been worth it.

--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Kaltes
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said by Krisnatharok:

(no one claimed that hype and piles of cash makes you genuine--look at...any celebrity ever):

Except that is exactly what you did:
said by Krisnatharok:

If you want to continue to contribute to this thread's post count by calling Roberts a fraud, go for it. $10 million says you're wrong.

You flat out said that Roberts' ability to make money proves he is genuine. You claimed I called him a fraud, and pointed to $10 million in fundraising as proof that Roberts is not a fraud. This is the only real argument in your post...
said by Krisnatharok:

Contrast effect bias:

I don't think you understand what "contrast effect bias" is, or how it works. My pointing out that Diablo 3 failed to deliver on its hype is not a fallacy, it is a simple, logical basis for my skepticism of over-hyped titles.
said by Krisnatharok:

Mirror imaging:

Again, I don't think you understand what "mirror imaging" is, or how it works. That is not to say that "contrast effect bias" or "mirror imaging" are actually a "thing" either. When you consider that wikipedia has an exhaustive list of dozens of fallacies, and the ones you chose to name-drop aren't anywhere on the list, your lack of analysis/application makes more sense: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ··· allacies
said by Krisnatharok:

Personal crusade/jihad:

If you think a handful of posts on a message board amounts to a personal crusade or jihad, you have a serious problem with perspective...

That last part of my post was tongue-in-cheek anyways, obviously I don't care that much if the extent of my efforts is a few posts on a message board.


Krisnatharok
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said by Kaltes:

That is not to say that "contrast effect bias" or "mirror imaging" are actually a "thing" either. When you consider that wikipedia has an exhaustive list of dozens of fallacies, and the ones you chose to name-drop aren't anywhere on the list, your lack of analysis/application makes more sense: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ··· allacies

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Thanks for making my day, grumpycat!

The $10 million raised speaks to the massive fan interest in seeing a new Descent Freespace/Freelancer/Starlancer/Wing Commander type game with modern visuals. Roberts caught on to that and was incredibly successful in generating interest--Kickstarter has been great for tapping directly into the consumer market base. Look at successful projects like the Ouya, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Project Eternity, Wasteland 2, Shroud of Avatar.

Are all of those going to be successful? No idea--I am guessing Planetary Annihilation won't. Is there a chance that Star Citizen will flop or not deliver all promised features? Of course there is, as with any game.

But do we got to get all pissy when a tech demo is released? Well, that's up to you, I guess.

For your own information, contrast effect bias is when you do something once and get an outcome, so you form positive or negative behavior off that one incident. IE (I bought a Western Digital HD once, and it died in 2 weeks, so I am never buying WD again). Mirror imaging is when you assume in another your own biases, prejudices, and motivations ("I would only blow myself to kill my enemies if I were truly desperate, so the Taliban must be truly desperate [since they are using suicide bombers]"). The personal crusade/jihad is just another way (humorously) to poke fun at your "if we can save just one life!" statement about banning guns deterring people from supporting SC.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Kaltes
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said by Krisnatharok:

The $10 million raised speaks to the massive fan interest

Yes, it says that a lot of people want what Roberts is promising, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether he can deliver. That's why I mentioned Nigerian email scams: when someone wants to believe something is true bad enough, they stop being risk-adverse and skeptical.

It is not like I'm dead-set against Roberts, I am simply skeptical that he can deliver. If I had to make my bets right now, I would bet that star citizen ends up being a decent game that doesn't remotely live up to the hype. I wouldn't bet on it being a trainwreck like Sim City 5 or whatever. You've gotta admit, he is promising a LOT.

My skepticism is re-enforced by the fact that his promotional efforts have focused on eye-candy and vague promises of game design, instead of actual details about how he plans to implement that design. To me, that says he simply hasn't thought about it too deeply yet. He has had enough time that he should have had these basic concepts sorted out. For example if you can be "a smuggler, pirate, merchant, bounty hunter, or soldier" in a huge multiplayer sandbox, how will he implement this? How he answers that question is a design decision he should have made by now, and yet he has been silent about it. That makes me skeptical that he can implement his vision without making some big compromises and cutting out a lot of what people are hoping for.

If you really think about it, the game is is promising is basically a MMO, isn't it? If you have this sandbox world driven by player interactions, how is that not a MMO? If that part ends up gutted and the extent of player interaction ends up being this silly viral "click here to tell all your facebook friends you did X!" a lot of people are going to be grumpycats.

He doesn't have any financial incentive to talk about it, because, like a politician, he knows whatever he says will disappoint some people. I don't like that because it feels dishonest to me. I think that when you have people INVEST in your game development, you have a fiduciary duty to them. That's my personal opinion. I know a lot of other people see Kickstarter as nothing more than a glorified pre-order. That question won't be settled until some massively hyped kickstarter ends up being a huge disappointment and some of the backers actually sue the company responsible for making fraudulent promises.
said by Krisnatharok:

For your own information, contrast effect bias is when you do something once and get an outcome, so you form positive or negative behavior off that one incident.

That doesn't sound right. After all, in your explanation, why is it called CONTRAST effect bias? There is no contrast. From the wiki on contrast effect bias: "A person appears more appealing than normal when contrasted with a person of less appeal and less appealing than normal when contrasted with one of greater appeal."

In other words, if you look at a picture of a hot girl and an ugly girl, the hot girl seems hotter and the ugly girl seems uglier, than if you had viewed them alone. So that makes perfect sense to me, and is a well known phenomenon. It is nothing like what you're saying, though.
said by Krisnatharok:

Mirror imaging is when you assume in another your own biases, prejudices, and motivations

That's not a logical fallacy, just a bad assumption someone can make. I think it is pretty obvious that the other people on this topic do NOT share my skepticism. lol
said by Krisnatharok:

The personal crusade/jihad is just another way (humorously) to poke fun

Yes like I said, my own comment was tongue-in-cheek, I'm just naturally really skeptical when the hype train is chugging at full steam.

IamGimli

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reply to Kaltes
said by KaltesAgain :

If you think a handful of posts on a message board amounts to a personal crusade or jihad, you have a serious problem with perspective...

To be fair, I don't think he ever implied that it was particularly successful or well-executed.


Krisnatharok
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reply to TigerLord

Re: Star Citizen

200 Digital Spaceships Sold For a Real $250,000 in Star Citizen 24-hour Livestream Event
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Jobbie
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Tigerlord, tell me you bought one of these.


TigerLord
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1 edit

2 recommendations

One for you, one for Kris, one for arch (antonica will sleep in kitchen) and one for me.


Krisnatharok
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There's a kitchen on these things?!? SOLD.


Krisnatharok
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reply to TigerLord

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTBzrUwB ··· re=share


Krisnatharok
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1 edit
Click for full size
Updated spreadsheet from Reddit:


Krisnatharok
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reply to TigerLord
Click for full size
Here;'Here's a couple crappy shots of my card.


Jobbie
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I want the hornet.


Kaltes
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reply to TigerLord
said by Chris Roberts :

"It can be anywhere from $35,000 to $150,000," Roberts says, speaking to the development cost associated with "a single ship."

Ship models are just 1 part of the overall aesthetic, and aesthetics are just 1 part of the overall game. If this guy is spending that much investor money on a single ship, he is budgeting poorly for the ultimate game, but he is budgeting exactly the way he should be if he is thinking more in terms of marketing and cashing in on the hype.

I think it is strange that so many people are laying down such ridiculous real-life money to essentially skip ahead in a video game. After all, isn't the point of the sandbox game, like privateer, that you engage in various activities to make money, like trading cargo or doing escort missions, so you can save up to buy a bigger, nicer ship? So if you lay down huge irl money to skip to the top ship, isn't that just like Blizzard offering to sell you a level capped character for $1,000 like what people who buy accounts do on ebay? At least people buying MMO characters can re-sell them and recoup some of their money, there is no reason to believe that will be possible here. Imagine if Blizzard said "if you pre-order for $1,250, you will get a maxed out character in full act 4 inferno gear". People would be outraged or incredulous. But here, for this game no one has any real idea about beyond some ship models, no one bats an eye.

For those of you who said that the core game is the single player where you are going to be using assigned fighters and not your own ship, how does this even make sense? You drop huge money on a ship that you can't even use for the bulk of the game?


Kaltes
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said by Chris Roberts :

Using what Roberts called the "Minecraft method," RSI would launch in alpha state and continuously update Star Citizen over time until they reached a final release, which would then be supported further.



... and what happens when fresh money slows to a trickle because everyone who wanted the game already has it, yet the development commitment is open-ended? Does Chris Roberts say "we are happy to lose money every month continuing to develop a game we've already squeezed dry" or does he slap the "final release" on it, cut the dev team down to bare bones bug fixers, and move on?
said by Chris Roberts :

"Basically it means that I don't need to take as much money or any money at all. We're actually debating right now of not even taking some of the investment money that was already pre-committed. Because if it's going to come from the community, it's better for the game and it's better for the community because I don't have any other interests involved."



Investment money comes with strings attached, contracts which favor the investors, and penalties for under-performance. Breaching the contract gets you sued. In other words: accountability. Money from the "community" (meaning: consumers) is strings-free, and no matter how badly you disappoint or abuse your consumers, they have no recourse. After all, you already have all their money, and they have no contracts protecting them. Better for the game? Nah, it's worse for the game because it removes a lot of the consequences for making a bad game and a lot of the incentive to make a great one.

Imagine you need a lawyer. One lawyer you pay $10,000 up-front in a fixed-fee arrangement. Another, you pay $0 up front in an hourly arrangement. Who do you honestly think is going to work harder for you and treat you better?


Krisnatharok
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reply to Jobbie
More fighter porn:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=N55HcZwT ··· HcZwTbYs


Krisnatharok
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Looks like they hit $12 million raised.

»robertsspaceindustries.com/comm- ··· -Million


Archivis
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reply to TigerLord
Have they announced a release date?

Tigerlord, since you exceeded the pledge amount, it looks like you can get the top tier ship?

I wonder how many ships we can pick up.
--
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Goggalor
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reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

Looks like they hit $12 million raised.

»robertsspaceindustries.com/comm- ··· -Million

More than $12M? Good Lord! Welp, good on them.
--
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Lungfish Civilian: (describing Goggalor) He's impervious to bullets! ... and love!
--


Jobbie
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reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

Have they announced a release date?

Tigerlord, since you exceeded the pledge amount, it looks like you can get the top tier ship?

I wonder how many ships we can pick up.

You can get as many as you can, right now I have the $55 for the 300i in the video above, I want to bump it to the 110 one which loots nicer.
--
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TigerLord
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reply to Archivis
I have a Vanduul fighter, an Origin M50, a Freelancer and a Constellation.

Afaik the vandul and m50 are no longer available, but the rest is up for grabs still.


Archivis
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Let me know if you need help managing your fleet.


Kaltes
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reply to TigerLord
Click for full size
said by TigerLord:

I have a Vanduul fighter, an Origin M50, a Freelancer and a Constellation.

Afaik the vandul and m50 are no longer available, but the rest is up for grabs still.


What are you going to do with all those ships? Did this game turn into a tactical RTS when I wasn't looking?


TigerLord
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Did you ever play Freelancer, StarLancer, any of the WC games, EVE Online, the X series? Different classes of ships, different playstyles, different roles.