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Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to clawfury

Re: [MoP] Great Post - I couldn't agree more

He honestly sounds like someone who came in after after they got rid of gated raids and hard rep checks in WotLK (like me, but I disagree with him). He assumes once he hits 90 he gets to stop questing and put that part of the game behind him. Kudos to Blizzard for trying to mix up what is called "the end game."

He also assumes that he's required to do all dailies/all the time. Why not pick one faction and focus on them, and then move on as time commits?

Oh I'm sorry, all I hear is that he deserves to raid because he wants to, even if he doesn't have the time required to put into it to get his gear to the point where he is ready to start.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
well said Kris, and he doesnt take into account that its for this tier only once the next tier of raids comes out you dont reset your rep so all of that is done and now you can just raid without worrying about gearing up through rep grind.
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Krisnatharok
Well the ones it really hits are casuals.
The ones that don't have alot of time to play everyday.

IMO rep should have perks that are good for hardcore but not mandatory like the current setup (so sure hardcore would have to do them)

If for example they had done the VP upgrade iLvL thing at launch so you only needed the rep to upgrade the gear you get then great, but not for fill in the gap gear.

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
reply to Krisnatharok
It didn't sound like to me that he doesn't HAVE the time - it sounds like he doesn't enjoy the time he's spending. I'm with him. I've been raiding since the end of Vanilla.

A large portion of the WoW player base has been with Blizzard since the beginning. Most of us were highschool or college kids when we first discovered the game, we had endless amounts of free time, and loved the sink. Most of us are now adults with families of our own, and these kind of time sinks just don't appeal to us anymore.

Blizzard has recognized that (or we thought they had) - and implemented sanity checks in their last few expansions. Granted, I'm sure it pissed off a few of the self-flagellating types, but most of us found it a welcome change. They're regressing. Raiding should be about skill, not your ability to put up with hours of brain-melting repetition every day to get to some reputation to be "ready to raid". I don't buy into that, and never will.

It's a game, not a profession. If there is not choices that are fun, I won't be playing. I personally loved being able to run dungeons, get random drops, and fill in the missing pieces from JP. Not being able to use the VP I earn from raids/dungeons to buy gear without hours a day of questing is, to me, just a bad decision.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
said by clawfury:

A large portion of the WoW player base has been with Blizzard since the beginning. Most of us were highschool or college kids when we first discovered the game, we had endless amounts of free time, and loved the sink. Most of us are now adults with families of our own, and these kind of time sinks just don't appeal to us anymore.

So you want what hooked you to change to accommodate your changing lifestyle? How is that fair to Blizzard?

Also keep in mind, like someone else said, this is only the first tier of raiding. I simply see this as Blizzard trying to extend what is the end game. You only have to grind rep once.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
Well Kris, personally, I don't care all that much. I just hate dailies, so I don't do them every day, period. If it slows me down a little bit, that's ok. Blizzard HAS changed to accomodate their player base - I'm sure you recognize that. I DO think this guy is a little over whiny and exaggerating, but he does have some valid points, which is why I posted it. They must recognize that there is a sizeable portion of their player base that hates dailies and loves dungeons, why not give them the option of levelling their rep how they want?


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to clawfury
Ok... I think he voiced his complaints well. The only think I really think they "screwed up" is the ilvl gearing regarding JP/Valor and H.Dungeon drops. I just don't get the logic of the intended progression... I just don't. If you intended JP to be used to get into Heroics, fine... but why hide them behind rep gates and make it so slow to build up JP in normal dungeons? I'm glad they bumped up the JP ilvl to be higher than the pvp crafted blues... so there is some semblance of correction there.

I like having something I know I can work on every time I log on, regardless of who else logs in my guild. What I don't like, is not seeing much of an advantage to having guild groups logged on, because if I grind heroic dungeons... it sets me behind on my rep grinds... if I rep grind, I'm setting myself behind getting LFR ready (because 458 doesn't get you into LFR... you need the 463s from dungeons to get in).

One final note... I don't think MV was supposed to be the typical first tier raid of an expansion. I think it was tuned down so that truly skilled raids could clear normal mode in 463 gear (this hurts me to admit). So maybe my confusion on their gearing progression philosophy is based on my wrongful placement of MV.

Anyway, if blizz could divorce the daily rep grind from the JP/Valor expenditures... it would really make these optional choices optional. Keep the crafted mats tied to rep, I like how that plays out... but let me spend JP/Valor at rates that can benefit my guild. By the time I have the rep... the JP is garbage.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

said by clawfury:

A large portion of the WoW player base has been with Blizzard since the beginning. Most of us were highschool or college kids when we first discovered the game, we had endless amounts of free time, and loved the sink. Most of us are now adults with families of our own, and these kind of time sinks just don't appeal to us anymore.

So you want what hooked you to change to accommodate your changing lifestyle? How is that fair to Blizzard?

Also keep in mind, like someone else said, this is only the first tier of raiding. I simply see this as Blizzard trying to extend what is the end game. You only have to grind rep once.

Until the new faction rep releases with the next patch.

Firelands released, what did they add? More daily quests and rep grind.

Darkmoon Faire releases. What do they add? More daily quests.

New expansion releases. They inject steroids into their daily quest model and rep grind.

There is nothing fun about dailys and grinding rep. At all.

I notice not one person in this entire thread has stated they are having a blast with all the daily quests they're doing (must do)every day.
More of a neutral, dispassionate type of posts instead.

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
but yet, you will gladly farm mobs for salvagable shit to maybe get enough mats to maybe upgrade a non essential stat on gear that you can only reskin and not truely upgrade, you make no fucking sense.
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
reply to Krisnatharok
Getting ready for Raids in Vanilla was more fun. It wasn't daily grinds. Attunements usually sent you on an interesting quest chain. Getting gear was through UBRS and Scholo and those sort of raids. You go from 5 man to 10-15 dungeons to the big 40 man raids. You also learned how to play as a group as they got bigger. Each dungeon step also gave you gear that helped you for the next dungeon step. It was a chain to go through that was fun. Grinding dailies everyday is not to me fun.


I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
reply to cymraeg
said by cymraeg:

but yet, you will gladly farm mobs for salvagable shit to maybe get enough mats to maybe upgrade a non essential stat on gear that you can only reskin and not truely upgrade, you make no fucking sense.

But the Guild Wars Franchise's end game is not the same as WoW. It is not tied to getting to latest gear out there. WoW is a loot driven game Guild Wars is not. Each appeals differently to players.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to cymraeg
said by cymraeg:

but yet, you will gladly farm mobs for salvagable shit to maybe get enough mats to maybe upgrade a non essential stat on gear that you can only reskin and not truely upgrade, you make no fucking sense.

A lot of assumptions in this post ^

I make no sense though.

Riiiight.

Have fun with your dailys buddy

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
reply to I AM
its still a grind no matter which way you spin it, atleast in wow there is an end to the winding path, you have to grind out mf gear to help with the finding more shit to salvage, people tend to think that there shiny toy is better than the kids next door, guess what it isn't.
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

1 recommendation

I'm going to start "hey modding" the GW2 posts.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to cymraeg
Turning this into a GW2 vs WoW debate is not going to get us any good.

Now kiss.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
/tar cymraeg
/kiss
/comfort
/silly

Its okay buddy. The one thing WoW has got right is emotes.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
Both games have a lot of things right, but that is not the point of this thread.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

I'm going to start "hey modding" the GW2 posts.

LOL.

Yep. Can't compare anything to the holy grail that is WoW in this forum. Nothing else exists.

Because MMOs never get compared to one another, right?

Not this forum though. We'll tell on you to the mods!

wabisuke

join:2007-01-23
Philippines
reply to Jobbie
said by Jobbie:

Both games have a lot of things right, but that is not the point of this thread.

True that, I want both games to succeed because it will only make the next iterations better. But apparently, people need to bash the other to somehow make their preferred game better. I never could understand that logic. Much like the iOS vs Android threads...


I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
reply to Jobbie
/tar Jobbie
/lick
/dance
/laugh
/gkick


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Ghastlyone
said by Ghastlyone:

said by Immer:

I'm going to start "hey modding" the GW2 posts.

LOL.

Yep. Can't compare anything to the holy grail that is WoW in this forum. Nothing else exists.

Because MMOs never get compared to one another, right?

Not this forum though. We'll tell on you to the mods!

A lot of assumptions in this post ^...

I'm not in the WoW forum to talk about some other game, nor does the topic of this thread really benefit from discussions of another game. That's what the more generic gaming forum is for.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
said by Immer:

said by Ghastlyone:

said by Immer:

I'm going to start "hey modding" the GW2 posts.

LOL.

Yep. Can't compare anything to the holy grail that is WoW in this forum. Nothing else exists.

Because MMOs never get compared to one another, right?

Not this forum though. We'll tell on you to the mods!

A lot of assumptions in this post ^...

I'm not in the WoW forum to talk about some other game, nor does the topic of this thread really benefit from discussions of another game. That's what the more generic gaming forum is for.

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Ghastlyone:

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?

cool. but you saw it fit to belittle my somewhat blunt reminder that we don't need to be discussing some other game here... and made wild assumptions about my motives for doing so. Plus... I couldn't resist recycling one of your earlier comments. /hug


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

1 recommendation

said by Immer:

said by Ghastlyone:

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?

cool. but you saw it fit to belittle my somewhat blunt reminder that we don't need to be discussing some other game here... and made wild assumptions about my motives for doing so. Plus... I couldn't resist recycling one of your earlier comments. /hug

I love me some Immer.

You know I gotta come in here and raz you guys every once in awhile


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
My response is somewhat based on ignorance, so please bear with me.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

If they are "must do" then I agree, it's ridiculous. While everyone will have to spend some amount of time to val cap, it should be possible to val cap if you're playing about an hour a day (i.e. running 1 heroic dun per day). If they are not "must do" then the valor given for them is sugar on top of the rep that you need to get access to whatever the rep vendor is selling -- i.e maybe saving you a dun run while you're grinding rep. I don't have a problem with having to grind rep to get access to a sweet item, except that I've always felt rep based items should be BoA rather BoP so you don't have to grind the rep again for each alt.

The big problem comes if the val you get from them is not subject to the val cap. Then all of a sudden, it becomes "must do" to the hardcore types instead of a bonus.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Ramikor :

My response is somewhat based on ignorance, so please bear with me.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
said by Immer:

said by Ramikor :

My response is somewhat based on ignorance, so please bear with me.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Exactly

Sure you could have gotten to 3k valor by now without doing dailies but you wouldn't be able to spend any if you hadn't done dailies.

From this week I've found you can cap valor just from dailies (I got to 500 in 3 days of just Tillers/GL/Klaxxi

If I had done anglers and Cloud then I'd have been even closer to cap.


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Yes, but like the firelands dailies you only have to do it until you get the rep you need to get the gear you want from that faction. I know that before you didn't have to spend valor to get faction gear, and that Cata had the rep tabards as an alternative to rep grinding, but I don't have a problem with having to grind rep for a faction rewards. Faction rewards should be earned. I felt that the tabards should only get you so far, but there probably is not a good or easy mechanic for that. In any case, the additional val you get for grinding rep that you were going to grind anyway to get the bis gear is a bonus. The current system just means instead of buying valor gear that you later replace with rep gear that you pay gold for, you grind rep and spend the valor on the rep gear.

To the extent the argument is that the valor vendors in the capital cities are not carrying new gear at all, where before they carried gear of comparable, but lesser quality than faction reward gear, I do have some sympathy. However, I think the max-min types would be grinding the rep to get the bis faction reward gear (and still complain about it), and so would be doing the dailies or other rep-builders until they had the necessary rep anyway. The lack of valor gear through the old valor vendors hurts the casuals who otherwise would not be grinding rep for bis gear, but who would be settling for the comparable gear. However, the alternative for them is crafted gear. Unfortunately epic crafted gear will be even more expensive to buy than in the past because many mats are BoP. However, the fact that there is an alternative takes it out of the "must" category.

Also, (more ignorance on my part) what ilvl is required for the raids? If you have to have valor gear to make the ilvl for a raid, that turns valor grinding into a "must do"; but if you can get in with blue crafted and/or heroic dun gear, then you don't have to grind valor at all, let alone grind rep to spend the valor.

I will als concede that having to grind rep with one faction before you can grind rep with another faction IS retarded. Everyone should be able to grind rep with whatever faction he thinks will benefit him most in whatever order suits his priorities.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Ramikor :

said by Immer:

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Yes, but like the firelands dailies you only have to do it until you get the rep you need to get the gear you want from that faction.

So your defense is that once you unlocked all the vendors you didn't have to go back? That was what... a month? Those dailies were also a stepping stone for non or late-raider to bypass early tiers of raiding to jump onto the new hotness. Different ballgame entirely.

Now, the ilvl for LFR is 460. The JP gear is 458, and you can only replace a few pieces of gear with it. If you grind out honored you get to learn 2 epic craftables at i476 (chest/hands). Because of the JP and Valor gating, you are running heroics hoping for a drop, and then you are hoping the loot system doesn't bug out and you have a fair shot at the loot (not new) but you can't focus on the dungeons because you have to dedicate a dungeon's worth of time doing dailies otherwise you won't be able to buy the items you are aiming for (new problem).

For those in raiding guilds, they can all agree (as we have) to go in under geared and just try to smash face at i458... but as Nick put it.. those on the cusp... not quite casual (because they hit 90 fast) but not quite hardcore (because they weren't already in a raiding guild playing in beta raids)... you're stuck for a few weeks.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

Cuthgar

join:2009-07-14
Palmdale, CA
The problem I have with the dailies is that they everything possible is gated behind them. If the rep grinds were for just Mounts or other "toys" then fine, make them as long as a grind as you want. Putting patterns and valor items behind them seems to me a way to keep players with stuff to do without adding much more content.

To me Blizz decided to just make stuff take longer to accomplish instead of actually providing more things to do. Capping valor now takes longer, most crafting requires days of cooldowns to complete, assuming you did the rep grind necessary in the first place.

The thing that was great about cata was being able to have 2-3 toons that could step in and raid easily, gear up quickly, and be on your way. Now I'll be damned if I even bother trying to get another toon to 90, grind the reps (even if they make the rep doubled for alts, double of shit is still shit, there's no way im doing this more than once.

Do I have more things to do? Perhaps. I still spend the same amount of time playing, the only difference is I feel like im being forced to spend all my time on my "main" and not bother even touching my alts, which causes a burned out feeling faster than usual.

Just my 2 cents worth.