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Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Immer

Re: [MoP] Great Post - I couldn't agree more

said by Immer:

said by Ghastlyone:

said by Immer:

I'm going to start "hey modding" the GW2 posts.

LOL.

Yep. Can't compare anything to the holy grail that is WoW in this forum. Nothing else exists.

Because MMOs never get compared to one another, right?

Not this forum though. We'll tell on you to the mods!

A lot of assumptions in this post ^...

I'm not in the WoW forum to talk about some other game, nor does the topic of this thread really benefit from discussions of another game. That's what the more generic gaming forum is for.

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?


Immer
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Evans, GA
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said by Ghastlyone:

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?

cool. but you saw it fit to belittle my somewhat blunt reminder that we don't need to be discussing some other game here... and made wild assumptions about my motives for doing so. Plus... I couldn't resist recycling one of your earlier comments. /hug


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

1 recommendation

said by Immer:

said by Ghastlyone:

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?

cool. but you saw it fit to belittle my somewhat blunt reminder that we don't need to be discussing some other game here... and made wild assumptions about my motives for doing so. Plus... I couldn't resist recycling one of your earlier comments. /hug

I love me some Immer.

You know I gotta come in here and raz you guys every once in awhile


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
My response is somewhat based on ignorance, so please bear with me.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

If they are "must do" then I agree, it's ridiculous. While everyone will have to spend some amount of time to val cap, it should be possible to val cap if you're playing about an hour a day (i.e. running 1 heroic dun per day). If they are not "must do" then the valor given for them is sugar on top of the rep that you need to get access to whatever the rep vendor is selling -- i.e maybe saving you a dun run while you're grinding rep. I don't have a problem with having to grind rep to get access to a sweet item, except that I've always felt rep based items should be BoA rather BoP so you don't have to grind the rep again for each alt.

The big problem comes if the val you get from them is not subject to the val cap. Then all of a sudden, it becomes "must do" to the hardcore types instead of a bonus.


Immer
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Evans, GA
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said by Ramikor :

My response is somewhat based on ignorance, so please bear with me.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
said by Immer:

said by Ramikor :

My response is somewhat based on ignorance, so please bear with me.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Exactly

Sure you could have gotten to 3k valor by now without doing dailies but you wouldn't be able to spend any if you hadn't done dailies.

From this week I've found you can cap valor just from dailies (I got to 500 in 3 days of just Tillers/GL/Klaxxi

If I had done anglers and Cloud then I'd have been even closer to cap.


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Yes, but like the firelands dailies you only have to do it until you get the rep you need to get the gear you want from that faction. I know that before you didn't have to spend valor to get faction gear, and that Cata had the rep tabards as an alternative to rep grinding, but I don't have a problem with having to grind rep for a faction rewards. Faction rewards should be earned. I felt that the tabards should only get you so far, but there probably is not a good or easy mechanic for that. In any case, the additional val you get for grinding rep that you were going to grind anyway to get the bis gear is a bonus. The current system just means instead of buying valor gear that you later replace with rep gear that you pay gold for, you grind rep and spend the valor on the rep gear.

To the extent the argument is that the valor vendors in the capital cities are not carrying new gear at all, where before they carried gear of comparable, but lesser quality than faction reward gear, I do have some sympathy. However, I think the max-min types would be grinding the rep to get the bis faction reward gear (and still complain about it), and so would be doing the dailies or other rep-builders until they had the necessary rep anyway. The lack of valor gear through the old valor vendors hurts the casuals who otherwise would not be grinding rep for bis gear, but who would be settling for the comparable gear. However, the alternative for them is crafted gear. Unfortunately epic crafted gear will be even more expensive to buy than in the past because many mats are BoP. However, the fact that there is an alternative takes it out of the "must" category.

Also, (more ignorance on my part) what ilvl is required for the raids? If you have to have valor gear to make the ilvl for a raid, that turns valor grinding into a "must do"; but if you can get in with blue crafted and/or heroic dun gear, then you don't have to grind valor at all, let alone grind rep to spend the valor.

I will als concede that having to grind rep with one faction before you can grind rep with another faction IS retarded. Everyone should be able to grind rep with whatever faction he thinks will benefit him most in whatever order suits his priorities.


Immer
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said by Ramikor :

said by Immer:

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Yes, but like the firelands dailies you only have to do it until you get the rep you need to get the gear you want from that faction.

So your defense is that once you unlocked all the vendors you didn't have to go back? That was what... a month? Those dailies were also a stepping stone for non or late-raider to bypass early tiers of raiding to jump onto the new hotness. Different ballgame entirely.

Now, the ilvl for LFR is 460. The JP gear is 458, and you can only replace a few pieces of gear with it. If you grind out honored you get to learn 2 epic craftables at i476 (chest/hands). Because of the JP and Valor gating, you are running heroics hoping for a drop, and then you are hoping the loot system doesn't bug out and you have a fair shot at the loot (not new) but you can't focus on the dungeons because you have to dedicate a dungeon's worth of time doing dailies otherwise you won't be able to buy the items you are aiming for (new problem).

For those in raiding guilds, they can all agree (as we have) to go in under geared and just try to smash face at i458... but as Nick put it.. those on the cusp... not quite casual (because they hit 90 fast) but not quite hardcore (because they weren't already in a raiding guild playing in beta raids)... you're stuck for a few weeks.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

Cuthgar

join:2009-07-14
Palmdale, CA
The problem I have with the dailies is that they everything possible is gated behind them. If the rep grinds were for just Mounts or other "toys" then fine, make them as long as a grind as you want. Putting patterns and valor items behind them seems to me a way to keep players with stuff to do without adding much more content.

To me Blizz decided to just make stuff take longer to accomplish instead of actually providing more things to do. Capping valor now takes longer, most crafting requires days of cooldowns to complete, assuming you did the rep grind necessary in the first place.

The thing that was great about cata was being able to have 2-3 toons that could step in and raid easily, gear up quickly, and be on your way. Now I'll be damned if I even bother trying to get another toon to 90, grind the reps (even if they make the rep doubled for alts, double of shit is still shit, there's no way im doing this more than once.

Do I have more things to do? Perhaps. I still spend the same amount of time playing, the only difference is I feel like im being forced to spend all my time on my "main" and not bother even touching my alts, which causes a burned out feeling faster than usual.

Just my 2 cents worth.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

1 edit
Cata had a lot to do if you enjoyed alting. But if you were a guy who just played a main, you probably ran into lack of content.

Like, their market research probably shows they had a lot of people who raided LFR on Tuesday, capped valor by Wednesday, and went "... well now what?". This is their solution.

Forcing people to play more during the week probably keeps engagement up and makes people ... not necessarily "not get bored" but at least not get distracted.

They do a lot of experimenting. I still haven't run scenarios or challenge modes yet, but I see the very casual in my guild doing scenarios, and the more hardcore players are crying for me to come tank CMs (sorry, I still have to get a @#*&(@*#& hat from Scarlet "fuck-you" Monastery), so that's a thing.

That said, if they could have some sort of BOA rep items and NOT make my alts take a month to catch up ... that'd be nice.


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

So your defense is that once you unlocked all the vendors you didn't have to go back? That was what... a month? Those dailies were also a stepping stone for non or late-raider to bypass early tiers of raiding to jump onto the new hotness. Different ballgame entirely.

Firelands was an example; but the concept is no different than grinding Therazane or Wildhammer dailies (which were available right from the start) for rep for whatever their vendors offed. From a hardcore standpoint, the issue is whether a particular faction has gear that is bis for a particular toon; and if so, they "have" to grind that rep to get it anyway (whether they have to spend gold or valor), so any valor attached to the dailies they have to grind is sugar and/or relieves them of having to grind as many duns while grinding rep. It becomes an issue of whether they prefer to run duns, with plenty of chances, but no certainty, of getting gear, or grinding rep as fast as possible to be certain to purchase the valor gear. Furthermore, if future expacs sell updated valor gear through the faction rep vendors (I have no idea whether they will), you won't have to do them in future expacs to spend valor, which is consistent with prior expacs. To me, this is a strategic choice, not a requirement.

said by Immer:

Now, the ilvl for LFR is 460. The JP gear is 458, and you can only replace a few pieces of gear with it. If you grind out honored you get to learn 2 epic craftables at i476 (chest/hands). Because of the JP and Valor gating, you are running heroics hoping for a drop, and then you are hoping the loot system doesn't bug out and you have a fair shot at the loot (not new) but you can't focus on the dungeons because you have to dedicate a dungeon's worth of time doing dailies otherwise you won't be able to buy the items you are aiming for (new problem).

Your argument is really that you have to choose between running duns, without certainty of getting gear, or the certainty of grinding rep to purchase rep gear. However, it doesn't make you have to do either or both, it means that if you have to choose or prioritize if you don't have more or less unlimited time. Running duns may be faster, but is less certain; grinding rep is more certain, but to many, tedious and slow.

said by Immer:

For those in raiding guilds, they can all agree (as we have) to go in under geared and just try to smash face at i458... but as Nick put it.. those on the cusp... not quite casual (because they hit 90 fast) but not quite hardcore (because they weren't already in a raiding guild playing in beta raids)... you're stuck for a few weeks.

I don't disagree with this; but again, I think it means as a player you have to choose between the certainty of grinding rep to open the vendor, or the risk and possible reward of gearing faster by grinding duns. This is true of any good game: you have to make choices amid uncertainty as to what is the best strategy for what you want to do.

Really, the particular circumstance that has people up in arms here is that MoP has taken away an option that was previously available. In essence, it is a "rule change." However, it still provides multiple paths to gearing - run duns; grind rep until you can purchase; or buy or make crafted.

Believe me, I too would like the certainty of ungated valor vendors; but given the "rule change," I've chosen to grind rep so I can purchase valor gear and get access to the crafted patterns. I've prioritized grinding rep because I expect that selling the epic crafteds will be very profitable, and was going to do it for the rep items anyway. For me it kills 2 birds at once, and when I'm done, I catch up the remaining holes, gods of RNG cooperating, by endlessly running duns.

Threatco

join:2011-04-19
Moncton, NB
You think these daily quests are bad? Why back in my day you had to kill every boss blind folded and walk to the raids bare foot up hill both ways in 40 ft snow. That is after you grinded much harder rep, ginded dungeons much longer, got people attuned, and hell even getting max level was no joke back then.

Lol no I get it. I normaly hate quests. But the whole spam invite thing and getting them done fast that way it is not so bad. And I am getting crafting mats I need anyways. Plus I am finding rarespawns for achievements, so it's all good.


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
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Reviews:
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reply to Ramikor
"deal with it" is always a viable conclusion statement. While we do deal with it, that doesn't mean our complaints have no merit.

I'm trying to min/max my priest so that I can better lead my guild in the first progression race we've ever engaged in. But I can't spec into double heals (which would aid our raids) because I need to keep a dps spec for the dailies. So I have to fully respec and rebuild my UI every time I realize that one healing spec is better suited than the other.

We are dealing with it... this IS a new situation... We are forced to do everything at once on our mains... we DO have legitimate complaints... we Will get past it.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
said by Immer:

"deal with it" is always a viable conclusion statement. While we do deal with it, that doesn't mean our complaints have no merit.

There is a certain amount of "deal with it" in my attitude; putting it that way and the prior discussion makes me realize that the thread is really "I don't like this change." I don't have a problem with "I don't like this change" per se. But I think it's healthy to discuss the reasons why a change is good or bad.

"I don't like this change because it makes things harder for me" is perfectly legit, but it's an issue of personal circumstance, not a gameplay issue. Not really much to discuss there, except to say "me too" or "not me." I usually ignore those posts, and when I do respond, in most cases I don't have much sympathy because everyone is playing by the same rules. Can't expect Bliz to tailor the game solely for me.

In this thread, the overt reason for I don't like this change given is "they're making me do this content". If there truly are no alternatives, or all the alternatives are hateful (ala the early Cata dungeons, which in my opinion were hateful but you had to run them because herioc drops or valor were the only options to get viable raid gear), I sypathize because the only other option is to vote with your feet. I don't believe that is the case here. If there is a legitimate route to what you want to achieve in the game that does not require you to do particular content, then you're choosing to do the content because of the reward it gives you in the end. The real argument should be "the reward should take less effort."

As a side note, very few people complain that a change makes things too easy -- they just get bored and leave.

Here the complaint is directed toward a rep grind through time consuming dailies. The issue should really be how much effort should be required for any particular reward. Legendaries typically require an enormous grind effort, and rightly so because the reward is great. I think it's legitimate to argue that in this case the rep grind is not commensurate with the reward, but it "has to be done" because it's the only SURE way to fill a gear hole, as valor was intended to do.

If that's what your're saying, I agree to an extent. I don't have a problem with having valor gear gated behind rep, as many people have argued in this thread, but I do think it should be easier (but not without effort) to open the gate. I think tabards are too easy (just buy it and put it on). Personally, I would make the zone quests and dailies worth more rep, and/or make the gear BoA. This would shorten the time needed to open the valor vendors, and avoid having to do it on alts, but still require effort. Like you, I've just been sucking it up, but without resentment because I'm hoping it will give me an economic advantage. I suspect that the new system will put my own raid group back 2-4 weeks. If raiding were my only reason for doing the dailies, then it would definitely suck to "have" to do them.

In any case, I am not saying that you and others do not have legitimate complaints or points, and am not trying to be dismissive. I am trying to contribute intelligently to a discussion on a matter that reasonable people can disagree about, and hope my comments are taken that way.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

1 recommendation

I just listened to the Weekly Marmot's take on this (less than 3 lore)

He had a solid point. The problem with dailies is that you have to log in and do them every day. It acts as a gate (fine), but it also means you don't have an option as when to play (not fine).

He mentioned in BC spending hours farming for herbs for raid consumables, but those hours tended to be concentrated. If he didn't herb on Thursday, he could do so on Sunday (or whatever).

That was a sound argument. They understood that argument at one point (by giving valor from randoms a weekly cap, instead of a daily one). They should really get rid of it. Do something like upping the Dread Amber Shards drops by a ton; then you can daily it out or grind it out. If you really want to gate, find a way to cap rep gains per week (though I do not think that is necessary, since valor acquisition is the real cap). But let people spend 4 hours on a weekend doing their rep grind, instead of 45 minutes every day.

Also rep tokens for alts, kthx. Doing grinds twice is really, really tedious.

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
We may all slightly disagree on how it should be "fixed", but outside of a few people who view "sucking it up" and "grinding" as a point of pride, most of us agree something needs to be changed. To most of us, it feels like things are going backwards.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
I mean, from a stated goal perspective, its succeeding:

1. People have something significant to their raiding progress to do outside of raiding. They may not be ENJOYING it, but its definitely something to do.

2. People do not spend all day in the home cities queuing up. They see the world, they engage in PVP, they are playing a game.

The non-success is "You have options!" I have tons of options to get valor points. But the only way to spend them is to grind dailies, every day, until revered, which takes a long time.


Immer
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reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

He mentioned in BC spending hours farming for herbs for raid consumables, but those hours tended to be concentrated. If he didn't herb on Thursday, he could do so on Sunday (or whatever).

That was a sound argument. They understood that argument at one point (by giving valor from randoms a weekly cap, instead of a daily one)...let people spend 4 hours on a weekend doing their rep grind, instead of 45 minutes every day.

Excellent point. With the nerf to valor rewards from your first 7 daily runs (from 150ea down to 30ea) grinding out your valor caps using dungeons without dailies is painful. You still can't spend the valor unless you've already ground out the requisite rep. Each rep quest grants you only 5 vp (this was a small token added not to incentivize valor, but to dull the pain of grinding dailies for those who'd rather just grind out dungeons but now can't)... so you have to knock out 6 rep quests to equal one dungeon's worth of valor... but you need far more than 6 rep quests to gain rep in a timely fashion. And, if you miss a day doing rep dailies... you don't just miss out on 6 quests... but on all of them, since you've lost out on a day's worth of progression.

But it bears mentioning that we are talking about "need" from a reference of wanting to raid (not being carried) in the first couple of weeks of hitting 90. It was inflated by being a new expansion where no one in the guild had the rep to help anyone else out with crafted epics... but it will still be there (to a lesser degree) for those still hitting 90 this week. But even having a guild grant alts and fresh 90s is gated... by the need to farm Motes of Harmony and Spirits of Harmony for the epic crafted items.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Ramikor

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

The problem with dailies is that you have to log in and do them every day. It acts as a gate (fine), but it also means you don't have an option as when to play (not fine).

This is an excellent argument that I can agree with. This is different from profession dailies. If a person wants to gain the needed rep to open the valor vendor, his ability to do it should not be limited by whether he can play everyday, but by the effort he's willing to put into it. That's one of the reasons I think the rep requirement is too high, as opposed as the dailies being a bad thing. In the alternative, Bliz should have put in enough zone quests so you can reach the rep you need solely by doing the zone quests, even if that means a ridiculous number of zone quests. That way, you could grind out the rep when you can play just by finishing the zone. However, I think everyone is in agreement that you shouldn't have to grind the rep more than once.

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
reply to Immer
Dailies are a must on the guild, both to get GL patterns and coins for extra loot chance at raid...

The rest of VP cap can come from Heroics and now LFR, it's highly recomended to cap VP for that elusive piece that refuses to drop in raid..

Now for doing the dailies, at least on Mal'ganus there are plenty of people asking for grouping in dailies, so they go down fast, 15 mins tops you finish 3 tiers of GL dailies with a 3-4 man group.


Feralmordius

join:2011-01-18
said by djlar:

15 mins tops you finish 3 tiers of GL dailies with a 3-4 man group.

I agree. I believe that Blizz designed these for groups and wanted to bring people together to get these done. This ties into their whole world PvP, pitting one group of questers with another.

However this camaraderie does not seem to always happen. And thus the world is left with every man for himself.
--
Tiermordius on Nathrezim Server (US)
Main Tank for Pride and Ego


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Nick D
Realistically, the current system in WoW is a gating system not for reputation, but for raiding.

It's pretty simple to see. Most guilds (at the beginning of the raiding tier, so 3 weeks ago) were killing bosses in MSV with 463/1-2 pieces 476 gear. If you raid in MSV (which I am sure you do) then you know that a tank/healer/dps back then was about 5k-10k lower in dps than they would be currently (when most people are sitting at about 485 ilvl). It's the gating of content through stunted gear acquisition.

This model will fall flat on its face pretty soon. Simply put, I believe that once people have mostly 489 valor gear (about 7 pieces or so), then the content will become super easy. Then the crying of "why is this so easy" will happen. It allows Blizzard to not have to actually nerf the content (ala Cata raids) in order for people to see it.

Yes, this has happened all this time in WoW's history, and is generally the way content gets easier. However, the mechanics are not necessarily difficult in raids. They are more annoying than anything else. However, this all plays into the model. Instead of having to nerf content because they made it too hard in the beginning, they balanced it around gear 2 tiers ahead of what is available to you prior to stepping into LFR. This way, the content naturally progresses to lesser difficulty instead of "roflmaowaytonurfcontentblizz".

I am on the fence on how the system works. However, the current system will produce less QQ overall (I am already exalted with all the relevant factions of Pandaria and have started on a second character because I am a masochist), but still produce some QQ. At the same time, this way, content naturally gets easier, instead of becoming immediately irrelevant after one huge ass nerf. Pick your poison.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


stonhinge
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS
Plus, the gear in HoF and ToES is higher ilvl than the VP and MSV gear. Not a great deal, granted, but it does mitigate the previous expansions' issues with items of VP gear being "all that was needed".
--
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
and IIRC the HoF LFR gear is higher ilvl than the MV reg gear.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
as I haven't counted or paid attention much to ti can someone say what the amount of rep per day is for shado-pan and august?

I'm going to max rep on klaxxi tonight and then just have those to left to max out (well and anglers) and of course some of the tiller NPC's.

and I'm not bothering with nat rep.