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kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to jonboy

Re: Goodbye Clear Qam Channels - FCC ruling

I have the HD package and Tivo on 2 of 5 televisions. The CC fee is only like $2-$3/month but Tivo's are like $14/month . I was just getting the basic channels on the other 3(don't watch them that much), and it looks like either they'll all just have DVD players on them or just get a regular cable box, aren't these like $5/month???Going from 2 remote to 3, I guess I'd have to get 3 more Harmany700's. I didn't really wanted to spend more $$ at this time.



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by kherr:

I have the HD package and Tivo on 2 of 5 televisions. The CC fee is only like $2-$3/month but Tivo's are like $14/month . I was just getting the basic channels on the other 3(don't watch them that much), and it looks like either they'll all just have DVD players on them or just get a regular cable box, aren't these like $5/month???Going from 2 remote to 3, I guess I'd have to get 3 more Harmany700's. I didn't really wanted to spend more $$ at this time.

Yeah they'e $5 a month. Firstly the ruling just came down today I'm not sure if ANY cable company has time table for requiring a box. Also Charter was moving to all digital anyway and you were going to need at least a DTA for anything other than locals. The DTAs should be cheaper than standard boxes. They are with other companies. If Charter follows what Comcast did they provided free DTAs for up to 2 TVs for 2 years.


minimeme

@charter.com

sure does sound like another way to screw over customers to me



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by minimeme :

sure does sound like another way to screw over customers to me

Yes Charter gets to do what DirecTv, DishNetwork, U-Verse and FiOS have been doing for YEARS. How evil of cable to expect fair play. I don;t about you but like oh 85% of Charter customers I have digital cable which mean I already have a box so this rule doesn't affect me in the least.

It's really going to suck for Charter to be able to do a service call from the head end without having to send a tech guy out. I much rather have to wait all day for a guy to come out and then get charged $40 or more for the privilege.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to 88615298

TWC MidOhio requires a cable box on ALL plans. Their system, even online, will not place the order unless you select one.


mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

It's really going to suck for Charter to be able to do a service call from the head end without having to send a tech guy out. I much rather have to wait all day for a guy to come out and then get charged $40 or more for the privilege.

Many people have cable if they have several TVs because it is a better value to only rent boxes for select rooms. We have 5 TVs and only rent one HD box since we can get most decent channels clear QAM now. Encrypting these channels and forcing set tops would be a pure money grab. The customer base would be better served by all channels going digital, and basic staying clear QAM.

I'm also failing to see how this will reduce service calls as most people have at least one set top currently (can be used for troubleshooting). If the issue isn't in your house you don't get charged anyway. What's your logic here?

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

its not about a money grab. It's about protecting their network from theft. Which does happen with Clear QAM. It's about time the FCC allowed cable companies to start encrypting these channels.

And BTW- comcast and others are actually giving away up to 2 STBs free. They're a no-frills box that just decode the 2-99 channels and nothing more. Anything after the 2 boxes you pay like $1.99 or 2.99



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to mj3431

said by mj3431:

Many people have cable if they have several TVs because it is a better value to only rent boxes for select rooms. We have 5 TVs and only rent one HD box since we can get most decent channels clear QAM now. Encrypting these channels and forcing set tops would be a pure money grab. The customer base would be better served by all channels going digital, and basic staying clear QAM.

So as I said if you had DirecTv or DishNetwork or FiOS or U-verse you'd have to have a box in ALL rooms and you wouldn't have an issue with it, but because it's cable you have an issue? Now that doesn't make sense.

All channels ARE going digital. That's been going on already. And you would had to have a DTA for your other TV regardless if this rule was allowed or not for anything other than locals.

I'm also failing to see how this will reduce service calls as most people have at least one set top currently (can be used for troubleshooting). If the issue isn't in your house you don't get charged anyway. What's your logic here?

Logic is what he has been stated by experts in the field.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to hottboiinnc

said by hottboiinnc:

its not about a money grab. It's about protecting their network from theft. Which does happen with Clear QAM. It's about time the FCC allowed cable companies to start encrypting these channels.

And BTW- comcast and others are actually giving away up to 2 STBs free. They're a no-frills box that just decode the 2-99 channels and nothing more. Anything after the 2 boxes you pay like $1.99 or 2.99

Yes they are called DTAs. And current analog customers would need them regardless of this rule once Charter went all digital. Basically all this rule does is allow Charter to encrypt local channels all the rest were going to be encrypted anyway.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

All channels ARE going digital. That's been going on already. And you would had to have a DTA for your other TV regardless if this rule was allowed or not for anything other than locals.

Logic is what he has been stated by experts in the field.

Go back and read my statement about them being CLEAR QAM, which wouldn't require a STB, since newer TVs have digital tuners in them already.

And I asked you directly how you think this would reduce service calls and the associated fees. You failed to answer my direct question.

said by 88615298:

So as I said if you had DirecTv or DishNetwork or FiOS or U-verse you'd have to have a box in ALL rooms and you wouldn't have an issue with it, but because it's cable you have an issue? Now that doesn't make sense.

I was referring to the VALUE of having cable. I don't have satellite, or U-verse specifically for this reason. I don't agree with paying $6 Per TV (DirecTV) to watch programming I already pay for. If they allowed you to buy the STB for a reasonable price it would be a different story. I'm sure you would have an issue if your ISP wanted to start charging you per computer on top of the price you already pay for your connection.

Ideally, a cable company should be able to provide a single STB device that decrypts the signal for the whole home, connected to the main splitter that provides the home with all clear QAM channels based on the subscription package. Let me bring my own DVR or other viewing hardware beyond that. This would take care of the theft issues pointed out above as well.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter

1 recommendation

reply to hottboiinnc

said by hottboiinnc:

its not about a money grab. It's about protecting their network from theft. Which does happen with Clear QAM. It's about time the FCC allowed cable companies to start encrypting these channels.

And BTW- comcast and others are actually giving away up to 2 STBs free. They're a no-frills box that just decode the 2-99 channels and nothing more. Anything after the 2 boxes you pay like $1.99 or 2.99

If it wasn't a money grab they would allow you to purchase the STB up front. I'm not arguing the cable theft issue but don't think this isn't also about generating an additional revenue stream. If they want to be innovative, provide a whole home STB to decrypt at the demarc and let us watch the content we subscribe to freely, just like Internet access.


firehawk

@frontiernet.net
reply to 88615298

To all those that say with FiOS you have to have at every tv you are wrong. There are PLENTY of clear QAM channels broadcast in your home.



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to mj3431

said by mj3431:

Go back and read my statement about them being CLEAR QAM, which wouldn't require a STB, since newer TVs have digital tuners in them already.

Only channels in clear QAM is the locals. Once Charter goes all digital that's not going to change. Charter never intended on making expanded basic channels Clear QAM regardless of this rule. So my statements stands. This rules only affect Charter custoemrs who get basic( as in locals only )

And I asked you directly how you think this would reduce service calls and the associated fees. You failed to answer my direct question.

I did answer. I defer to experts which know more about this and me or you. You seem to know a lot about this but I don't hear YOUR proof how is it doesn't reduce service calls. Hypocritical to expect me to provide proof when you refuse to provide proof for your own opinion.

I was referring to the VALUE of having cable. I don't have satellite, or U-verse specifically for this reason. I don't agree with paying $6 Per TV (DirecTV) to watch programming I already pay for. If they allowed you to buy the STB for a reasonable price it would be a different story.

So they should either lease you a box for nothing or allow you to buy a box at a rate below what it cost because I'm kind of sure your "reasonable" price doesn't match what they would charge.

I'm sure you would have an issue if your ISP wanted to start charging you per computer on top of the price you already pay for your connection.

Apples and oranges. My computer can connect to their network without the need for seperate modems or other special equipment.

Ideally, a cable company should be able to provide a single STB device that decrypts the signal for the whole home, connected to the main splitter that provides the home with all clear QAM channels based on the subscription package. Let me bring my own DVR or other viewing hardware beyond that. This would take care of the theft issues pointed out above as well.

The only clear QAM signal there have ever been is LOCALS. And clear qam signals don't need to be decrypted hence the name CLEAR QAM. So you point doesn't even make sense. If the signals are encrypted they aren't clear qam.

Also your system wouldn't work on older TV that lack QAM tuners.

OK let's pretend the FCC didn't come down with this rule. The fact is Charter is going all digital and in many areas they already have. Yes you can still get locals in clear QAM in those areas. You CAN NOT get expanded basic channels via clear QAM. You need a DTA. And if you have an older TV without a QAM tuner you need a DTA even if you only want locals.

So at the end of the day the ONLY people this ruling affects are those that ONLY want locals and have QAM tuners in their TVs. What % of Charter's customer base is that? 2%-3% And I'm sure most of them can get in locals via OTA anyway.

Of course that is assuming Charter even plans on encrypting locals which they have not stated they will or won't as far as I know.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to firehawk

said by firehawk :

To all those that say with FiOS you have to have at every tv you are wrong. There are PLENTY of clear QAM channels broadcast in your home.

Well then if you have a choice between FiOS and Charter I suggest going with them. Problem solved.


caseywor

join:2004-04-19
Orlando, FL
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Charter
·Mediacom
reply to firehawk

The same goes for Mediacom....I actually didn't realize the other cable companies were so stingy with clear QAM. I have three TVs, and only one has a box, a TiVo with a cable card. My other two HDs get all of the local and expanded basic "Family Cable" channels in clear QAM and also gets all network locals in HD along with WGN America. So at my other TVs, even without a box, I can get every Expanded basic channel in Standard Definition without a box and quite a few HD. I am glad to know that FiOS does the same thing.

»www.mediacomtoday-lineup.com/lin···dex.aspx
You can see the expanded basic "Digital-Ready Family TV" list at the bottom. I didn't think they were a rarity to offer that.


mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

I did answer. I defer to experts which know more about this and me or you. You seem to know a lot about this but I don't hear YOUR proof how is it doesn't reduce service calls. Hypocritical to expect me to provide proof when you refuse to provide proof for your own opinion.

You're speculating that service calls would be reduced. The burden of proof is on your end not mine. I don't need proof to say requiring an STB at every TV wouldn't reduce service calls but I'll give it to you anyway. Line issues, noise etc will still exist in the system just as they do now and usually have to be addressed by a truck roll. Since there is already one STB provided a Tier 1 tech can already get general readings from the home off that STB. I happen to have a friend who is a Charter line tech and an STB doesn't magically make plant issues disappear. That is why I asked for your explanation.

So they should either lease you a box for nothing or allow you to buy a box at a rate below what it cost because I'm kind of sure your "reasonable" price doesn't match what they would charge.

Again you speculate what my "reasonable" price would be. All things considered I would gladly pay up to about $150 per basic HD box. We're just talking about a TV tuner here. This isn't fancy equipment.

Apples and oranges. My computer can connect to their network without the need for seperate modems or other special equipment.

Your computer needs a DOCSIS modem. Last time I checked that was a separate modem. The technology exists to provide a whole home DVR, as such there could be a whole home TV gateway. Refer to my previous money grab statement as to why this won't happen.

The only clear QAM signal there have ever been is LOCALS. And clear qam signals don't need to be decrypted hence the name CLEAR QAM. So you point doesn't even make sense. If the signals are encrypted they aren't clear qam.

I wasn't talking about the clear channels. I was talking about digital channels that are being encrypted. Why not give users a gateway device that has the ability to decrypt the channels at your main splitter and provide them in clear downstream (in your home). It tackles theft issues and provides users with the ability to get their subscribed channels throughout their entire home.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by mj3431:

Again you speculate what my "reasonable" price would be. All things considered I would gladly pay up to about $150 per basic HD box. We're just talking about a TV tuner here. This isn't fancy equipment.

And many people that have posted about wanting to buy their own box state "reasonable" at $50. No one is going to sell a customer a STB for $50.

Your computer needs a DOCSIS modem.

Yeah and? each computer doesn't need one since there are thing called Wi-Fi and routers. Even if I wanted to hardwire 4 PCs I can because my routers has 4 Ethernet ports.

The technology exists to provide a whole home DVR, as such there could be a whole home TV gateway.

I'm 99.9% sure this system of yours works best when a system is all digital. Can you at least wait until Charter gets to all digital before assuming they wouldn't implement such a system?

I wasn't talking about the clear channels. I was talking about digital channels that are being encrypted. Why not give users a gateway device that has the ability to decrypt the channels at your main splitter and provide them in clear downstream (in your home). It tackles theft issues and provides users with the ability to get their subscribed channels throughout their entire home.

Once again this decrypted signal would be QAM which older TVs can not decode. Sorry but there is no way that you can have an all digital system that will work with older SD tube TVs and even some older HDTVs without some sort of STB and that's just the truth.


nonamesleft

join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Callcentric
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

said by minimeme :

sure does sound like another way to screw over customers to me

Yes Charter gets to do what DirecTv, DishNetwork, U-Verse and FiOS have been doing for YEARS. How evil of cable to expect fair play. I don;t about you but like oh 85% of Charter customers I have digital cable which mean I already have a box so this rule doesn't affect me in the least.

It's really going to suck for Charter to be able to do a service call from the head end without having to send a tech guy out. I much rather have to wait all day for a guy to come out and then get charged $40 or more for the privilege.

Uhh dude...Directv dishnetwork uverse and fios need a box to convert the signal! Cable doesn't!!!!!!! Except for certain tiers.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by nonamesleft:

Uhh dude...Directv dishnetwork uverse and fios need a box to convert the signal! Cable doesn't!!!!!!! Except for certain tiers.

Um dude in case you haven't heard Charter is going all digital and in fact they have done that already in certain areas. So please explain to me how an old fashion CRT that only has a NTSC tuner is going to convert a digital signal which has QAM modulation without a box of some sort? I eagerly await you response.

By the way none of this has anything to do with the rule which just says Charter can now encrypt locals. Everything else was going to be encrypted anyways.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15
reply to mj3431

said by mj3431:

I wasn't talking about the clear channels. I was talking about digital channels that are being encrypted. Why not give users a gateway device that has the ability to decrypt the channels at your main splitter and provide them in clear downstream (in your home). It tackles theft issues and provides users with the ability to get their subscribed channels throughout their entire home.

It doesn't tackle the theft issue within the home which the vast majority of CONTENT providers are also trying to prevent.

The CONTENT providers won't allow cable companies to distribute unencrypted content IN the home.

That's why even FIOS needs their CableCARDs paired with the equipment, since HDCP is now enabled like every other video provider. Unencrypted digital links between the boxes and TVs aren't even allowed.

End devices need unencryption ability if you want a boxless enviroment.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by DrDrew:

It doesn't tackle the theft issue within the home which the vast majority of CONTENT providers are also trying to prevent.

define "theft" in the home. How does one do that?


nonamesleft

join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Callcentric
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

said by nonamesleft:

Uhh dude...Directv dishnetwork uverse and fios need a box to convert the signal! Cable doesn't!!!!!!! Except for certain tiers.

Um dude in case you haven't heard Charter is going all digital and in fact they have done that already in certain areas. So please explain to me how an old fashion CRT that only has a NTSC tuner is going to convert a digital signal which has QAM modulation without a box of some sort? I eagerly await you response.

By the way none of this has anything to do with the rule which just says Charter can now encrypt locals. Everything else was going to be encrypted anyways.

digital is the same as encrypting. There is a question awaiting your response in the monday links section, you better go answer his comment.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

said by DrDrew:

It doesn't tackle the theft issue within the home which the vast majority of CONTENT providers are also trying to prevent.

define "theft" in the home. How does one do that?

For content providers, it's viewers making unauthorized copies of content they don't own.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by DrDrew:

said by 88615298:

said by DrDrew:

It doesn't tackle the theft issue within the home which the vast majority of CONTENT providers are also trying to prevent.

define "theft" in the home. How does one do that?

For content providers, it's viewers making unauthorized copies of content they don't own.

you mean like the old days where I could watch HBO and record the movie on a VCR?


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15
reply to nonamesleft

said by nonamesleft:

digital is the same as encrypting.

Digital is far from the same as encrypting.

ClearQAM is digital but not encrypted. Many TVs and other devices can view these signals.

Encrypted QAM needs authorization and the proper equipment to decode, most TVs and other devices can't do it. CableCARDs were the FCCs answer to allow the decryption of cable signals by 3rd party equipment. They were integral to both authorization of equipment and decryption of the signals.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to nonamesleft

said by nonamesleft:

digital is the same as encrypting.

Um no it's not. The HD locals are digital they are not encrypted. OTA signals are digital they are not encrypted.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

you mean like the old days where I could watch HBO and record the movie on a VCR?

Yes, although that being analog, distribution and libraries of movies were pretty limited due to piss poor quality. Most of that activity was really limited to personal use. It's still an available option anyway.

About they only way I see CONTENT providers allowing unencrypted digital distribution is if they can watermark the content with the ID of the authorized viewer. That way they can track were unauthorized copies they obtain come from and they can go after them.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by DrDrew:

said by 88615298:

you mean like the old days where I could watch HBO and record the movie on a VCR?

Yes, although that being analog, distribution and libraries of movies were pretty limited due to piss poor quality. Most of that activity was really limited to personal use. It's still an available option anyway.

About they only way I see CONTENT providers allowing unencrypted digital distribution is if they can watermark the content with the ID of the authorized viewer. That way they can track were unauthorized copies they obtain come from and they can go after them.

A movie on HBO has been distributed illegally LONG before HBO even had it. I'm not seeing that being a huge issue. People who wanted that movie illegally got it along time ago. Someone that wants to record that movie for themselves, personally I don't give a shit and neither should HBO. Might even be an incentive to keep an HBO subscription going.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15

said by 88615298:

A movie on HBO has been distributed illegally LONG before HBO even had it. I'm not seeing that being a huge issue. People who wanted that movie illegally got it along time ago. Someone that wants to record that movie for themselves, personally I don't give a shit and neither should HBO. Might even be an incentive to keep an HBO subscription going.

Still HBO demands it encrypted. If cable companies don't comply, they don't get rights to redistribute HBO and the signals get yanked. Every provider is given the same option, so they all encrypt it.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


nonamesleft

join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Callcentric
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

said by nonamesleft:

digital is the same as encrypting.

Um no it's not. The HD locals are digital they are not encrypted. OTA signals are digital they are not encrypted.

Then whats the problem then? You like when cable does this to you guys? You are lucky you don't need a box from the cable company for your toilet to make it work! These cable companies need regulators that don't give a cable companies a free pass and really law down the rules.