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Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Will Verizon shut down copper phone accounts?

Has anyone heard about this? I was just at my Verizon page and there was an "important service notice". It said they were transitioning from anything copper to fios and when they were done these services would no longer be available. Does anyone know if this is true or just a scare tactic?

I recently got Fios Triple play, but have left our copper phone line as is (although Verizon told me if I changed it to digital it would cost $10 added to my account, as opposed to the $65 it now costs.)

I'm just curious if they can/will actually stop copper service.

Sincerely, Libra



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1

What area do you live?



SRF26

join:2000-04-03
Jamaica, NY

1 recommendation

reply to Libra

It is unlikely that Verizon will/can shut down copper telco service for a long time. The infrastructure to support FiOS still does not exist in many areas where FiOS has a presence e.g. NYC. Until Verizon is available to every single location where copper exist today, copper isn't going away.

Regards....JL


Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
reply to Libra

Thank you for your replies. I live in one of the 5 boroughs of NYC. I'm glad to hear copper will remain. I don't want to be forced into switching to digital (although the digital line we now have seems fine).

Sincerely, Libra



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

1 recommendation

reply to Libra

Two people out my way were transitioned over to fiber because of line quality complaints, repeatedly over the years. We're 32000 feet out, and finding good copper pairs is not easy I guess.

The services they are getting is the same as before in terms of billing. It's still regulated POTS, just over on fiber delivery.

The thing VZ cannot do is to force migration from regulated POTS to a non-regulated digital service. Your price shows that, $65 instead of $10.

At this home/office, three lines go through the ONT. One is residential POTS metered service. That never changed. The other two lines are business, were also POTS that did not change. When we ordered FiOS, we went internet only. The phone service stayed the same, just changed from copper to fiber.

We did recently go to bundled service to put both business phones and internet to the business account.

I think the biggest reason folks want to stay on copper is the ability to use line-powered phones in case of an extended outage. The only times we have had longer than 8-hour electrical outages was when they were storm-related. Since we want to keep the freezer running, our generator also keeps the FiOS running. No big deal for us, although it's not a solution for everybody.

There are other ways to keep the ONT running in a long-term outage. $55/mo. difference will pay for a lot of backup in a short time. Unless I misunderstood your reason to retain copper.

My 2 friends who were pushed over to fiber had some of the same concerns, they are both elderly and need communication in case of emergency. We've improved their battery backup for longer-term peace of mind, so now they have the best of both worlds. An external battery and cable to plug into the Auxiliary power jack on the BBU works for them.


Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by birdfeedr:

We've improved their battery backup for longer-term peace of mind, so now they have the best of both worlds. An external battery and cable to plug into the Auxiliary power jack on the BBU works for them.

We're not technically inclined. Would we be able to do what you describe or would Verizon do it for us?

I don't understand what regulated POTS is over fiber wires. Is that what my digital phone line is?

My main reason for keeping the copper right now is it's reliability in case of an emergency. (But I do like the difference in price if we switch.)

Thank you for your reply.

Sincerely, Libra


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:31

said by Libra:

Would we be able to do what you describe or would Verizon do it for us?

No, VZ won't provide you with an auxiliary battery. Use of the aux battery jack on the BBU is unsupported.

birdfeedr See Profile put up a long post a couple months ago after researching the aux battery jack very thoroughly. Read his post and decide if that's something you want to tackle.
said by Libra:

I don't understand what regulated POTS is over fiber wires.

Regulated POTS is Freedom Essentials delivered over fiber.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.


PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3

And POTS =
Plain Old Telephone Service



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to Libra

said by Libra:

said by birdfeedr:

We've improved their battery backup for longer-term peace of mind, so now they have the best of both worlds. An external battery and cable to plug into the Auxiliary power jack on the BBU works for them.

We're not technically inclined. Would we be able to do what you describe or would Verizon do it for us?

Maybe not, but you've given me an idea or two. Stay tuned.
said by Libra:

I don't understand what regulated POTS is over fiber wires.

POTS is an acronym for Plain Old Telephone Service.

Freedom Essentials is one package that includes local and long distance, but that one and the Lifeline service and all of the legacy phone services (and there are quite a few different plans) are all regulated by state and federal government. These services used to be delivered over copper wires. VZ has to get permission to raise rates on regulated services, and they are taxed differently. There are other regulated conditions they need to meet including time to repair.

I'm not sure about other states, but Verizon Communications (or similar) provides the regulated service and Verizon Online provides the data service. Billing services from the two companies can get very complex and is part of the reason VZ is working very hard to get everyone who has a Verizon Online service off of Verizon Communications services. They are not renewing Freedom Essentials (regulated), and are forcing bundle renewals over to Digital Voice (unregulated). That's the end result of only offering Digital Voice.

I do not believe they can force an existing subscriber on a pre-Freedom Essentials plan off of it. An example is my two friends, and the residential measured service we're still on at the home/office I referred to earlier.

But if I just moved into town from Nebraska, and called up to get only telephone service, I think I'd have to pull out all the stops to get a regulated telephone plan. I'm sure I would be offered only Digital Voice, unless I were to specifically request a lifeline or measured service tariff. There are still legacy copper wires available on my street, and I'm sure Verizon Communications would deliver measured service to me on copper.

Whether it's delivered over copper or fiber is distinct from whether it is regulated or not.

Hope this explanation helps.

said by My April Bill :

Service Providers
Verizon RI provides regional, local calling and related features, other voice services, and FiOS TV service, unless otherwise indicated. Verizon Long Distance provides long distance calling and other services identified by "VLD" in the applicable billed line item. Verizon Online provides Internet service, HMC service and FiOS TV equipment.

I don't know yet what my new bill will show, I've been switched to Digital Voice. TV will still be regulated and will still be provided by Verizon RI.


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to Libra

Just to add to the conversation, fiber has been used to provide plain old telephone service for decades now.

Anyone who is familiar with DSL in its early days, or was a visitor to this site, may recall people talking about how they couldn't get DSL because part of their telephone line was delivered over fiber and only part was delivered on copper.

Some providers used to sell i-dsl -- DSL service over fiber which was just ISDN service without a B-Channel.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8


Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to birdfeedr

Thank you for explaining the difference between copper POTS and digital voice. I imagine that since the digital voice is unregulated it may not remain in our favor in the future. I read the information you wrote about using the auxiliary bbu. It's quite interesting but the initial warnings stopped me, not to mention I wouldn't be capable of doing that.

I'll keep the copper for now. I'm glad Verizon can't force a switch.

Sincerely, Libra


tnsprin

join:2003-07-23
Bradenton, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to SRF26

said by SRF26:

It is unlikely that Verizon will/can shut down copper telco service for a long time. The infrastructure to support FiOS still does not exist in many areas where FiOS has a presence e.g. NYC. Until Verizon is available to every single location where copper exist today, copper isn't going away.

Regards....JL

Actually they are definitely sending out notices such as the original poster mentioned hear in Nassau County, NY. Might take longer in NYC, but they are definitely moving to get rid of copper which is high maintenance.


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to Libra

said by Libra:

I read the information you wrote about using the auxiliary bbu. It's quite interesting but the initial warnings stopped me, not to mention I wouldn't be capable of doing that.

I wrote those warnings as a caution to non-technical readers. They were included in response to public as well as private comments that I was publishing instructions to modify VZ's equipment. Done improperly, it could result in equipment damage.

I am testing a fairly easy non-technical solution, which I will publish when complete.

[edit to add]It's obvious that an additional BBU would improve run time, but I'm thinking of a battery supplement or replacement.

batsona
Maryland

join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD
reply to Libra

My neighbor had bad quality problems on his copper, that resulted in 911 calls coming from his phoneline (interference, cross-talk)?? At any rate, they moved him to FiOS just because of it - I doubt he knew what it was.. no problem since...



SRF26

join:2000-04-03
Jamaica, NY

There is no doubt fiber is the wave of the future, but it isn't going to replace the current copper infrastructure in urban areas like NYC for many years to come. IMO, fiber will only be run to replace copper as a last resort. It might be a cynical, but Verizon isn't going to run fiber (spend money) unless they are forced to do it.

Regards...JL


lijacobs

join:2010-07-30
Lawrence, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Libra

The reason that VZ is forcibly switching customers to DV is to bust the CWA and IBEW unions. Trouble report resolution for DV is handled by non-union employees. Fiber, once it is installed is subject to for less degradation than copper, thus, no work for VZ union field employees. It's aways the money.



vzfiostechnj

@verizon.net
reply to Libra

It is called "network evolution". Yes Verizon CAN force you off of the copper and onto the Fiber. What they CANNOT do is force you from a regulated service to a deregulated service.

You as the subscriber cannot dictate to Verizon the "transport method" in which they deliver the service.

Network evolution involves changing your transport method from the copper network onto the fiber optic network. However, your services and rates do not change.

As an example, your copper line at one point may have been a direct copper feed. As years went by your pair may have changed from direct copper to a "PG"(pair gain) system. (Half fiber/ half copper). This change would be transparent to you and you would never know we changed the transport method of delivering your service. Also, the line cards would be subject to failure and power outages just the same as an ONT, and all you would know is that your service was out without knowing the exact reason why. The backup generators and batteries for these CEVs (fiber huts) would keep the power going, similar to the Battery Backup for your FiOS ONT. The difference being they would last a lot longer than 8 hours because they are refrigerator sized units.

In summary, YES, everyone in a FiOS enabled area will eventually be forced onto the fiber, but you can keep your same deregulated services. Currently, to make the transition as smooth as possible, Verizon is requesting customers to voluntarily accept the free upgrade. When you are one of the last remaining customers in an area, you will be forced to make the change, especially if there are no spare copper pairs to provision your service in the event that the copper degrades. There is ZERO capital expenditure going into replacing copper plant where there is already a fiber overlay. The only areas that will have copper plant replaced with new copper cables are the areas that are not planned for FiOS.



tigerpaw509

join:2011-01-19
reply to Libra

They are lying....Some day it will me true but not yet.

Again they are LYING to you.They are fishing



PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3

What are they lying about? They did not say they are forcing Libra over. VZ also said that Libra can move over to DV , dropping the copper bill and adding $10 to the FiOS bill.



norbert26
Premium
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI
reply to vzfiostechnj

Verizon may have a right to change the transport method however the FiOS install is very invasive. Unlike a transparent change of fiber added someplace away from the home FiOS requires a new drop brought in, an outlet to be provided, access to MY computer . For most people this is not an issue and if one is building a new home and the walls are not closed in by all means wire it for fiber from the get go (EX: run cat 6 through the walls, new coax to every room). Issues however can occur retrofitting an older home . In this case the customer can simply move on to another provider for services needed as i did. I got rid of both the verizon POTS and verizon DSL to get them off my back. I will leave this with the following: I would embrace this IF the home was new.


nyrrule27

join:2007-12-06
Howell, NJ
reply to Libra

yes they can shut down copper. they did it in a city in texas and they did it in wesley chapel florida. they basically said switch to fiber or get another carrier.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to norbert26

said by norbert26:

the FiOS install is very invasive. Unlike a transparent change of fiber added someplace away from the home FiOS requires a new drop brought in, an outlet to be provided, access to MY computer .

Since the topic is about copper phone accounts, it's not quite so invasive. An external ONT and the fiber drop is not invasive unless you have some heirloom plantings nearby and you don't want them trampled, help the installer find a way to protect the vegetation.

Typically the PS/BBU is inside with an additional low voltage power cable through the wall to the ONT. Typically, the PSU can be located near an existing outlet without too much difficulty. Yes, this part is an inside installation, just as with an interior ONT. Invasive? Yes, in the sense someone has to be there and an installer is inside your house. Typically, for a copper phone replacement, the ONT will be located near the existing NID.

Yes, there are exceptions since one size does not fit all. MDUs are an example.

For phone service, access to your computer is not needed. For FiOS internet, access to your computer isn't needed either, although the installer will ask for access because it helps verify you get the speed you were asking for.

One thing that Verizon *is* doing, maybe not all areas, is refusing to install new dry loop DSL, except perhaps through a CLEC.

One thing they are *not* doing, is upgrading copper network in your area. When it can't be repaired or capacity is used up, fiber becomes the transport method.

When you consider corporate vs. consumer, fiber vs. copper, regulated vs. unregulated, union vs. non-union, upgrade copper vs. replace with fiber, every point under consideration has pros and cons.

It's not a black and white picture. Nothing stays the same for long.


norbert26
Premium
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI

said by birdfeedr See Profile

One thing that Verizon *is* doing, maybe not all areas, is refusing to install new dry loop DSL, except perhaps through a CLEC.

One thing they are *not* doing, is upgrading copper network in your area. When it can't be repaired or capacity is used up, fiber becomes the transport method.

[/BQUOTE :

] They have stopped offering any DSL to new customers in my area except through a CLEC. Even for POTS one would be hard pressed to get such over copper you would most likely get it over fiber by default. Now as far as the CLEC if one is under contract and the copper pair fails and no replacement pair is available then the CLEC would have to relieve customer from contract or else Verizon would be obligated to repair said pair even if it means patch it up. Granted in time the copper will go away and it will be choose fiber or something else .



wmcbrine
213 251 145 96

join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD
kudos:1
reply to norbert26

said by norbert26:

Unlike a transparent change of fiber added someplace away from the home FiOS requires a new drop brought in, an outlet to be provided, access to MY computer .

There's really no need for them to access your computer.
--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to birdfeedr

I will be interested in seeing your non-technical solution when you complete it. Thank you.

Here's a copy of the Notice Verizon put on my Verizon page:

"FiOS is Here!

We are in the process of converting your entire service area to our state-of-the-art fiber-optic network and we need your help!

Products you may currently subscribe to such as High Speed Internet (DSL) or voice services over our copper phone lines will no longer be available in your area once this transition is complete. In order to transfer you to our fiber network, we need to schedule an appointment to install new equipment at your location. Scheduling this appointment immediately will ensure you a worry-free experience with no service interruptions. Act now to avoid any disruption of your service by simply selecting an option below.

As a result of upgrading to fiber, we will be able to offer you a complete bundle of services to address all your communications and entertainment needs. The upgrade allows you to keep the voice service you have today and also gives you the option to subscribe to our amazing FiOS TV and FiOS Internet services.

Reminder: The move to fiber optics will not change your current Verizon services or rates and you will not be charged for the installation or for the equipment required for the fiber upgrade
NOTE: If you wish to simply disconnect your existing service, please contact your local business office."

This sounds a bit ominous to me. But I will probably wait it out.

Sincerely, Libra



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

1 recommendation

said by Libra:

I will be interested in seeing your non-technical solution when you complete it. Thank you.

One really non-technical solution is to run a BBU in front of the FiOS BBU. But this is not efficient.

My solution will be an adapter that will allow you to connect to an external battery to provide power to the ONT during an extended power outage.

I am testing operation with a 35AH battery. I will provide part numbers and step-by-step instructions.

My question for you is how long an extended power outage do you want to plan for? Longest I've ever seen here in 30 years is 4 days once, 2.5 days once, and 1 day three times, although I know others nearby have seen up to 7 days of outage. Very rare that a power outage lasts more than a few hours.

Others might say that the copper lines put the burden for power backup on the telco, but I say the difference in service price will pay for the added cost of backup power in your home.

This is really off-topic, so when ready, I will make a new topic.


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

1 recommendation

reply to Libra

Staying on-topic:

The letter says that VZ will *eventually* migrate everyone off of copper. While they're thinking years, they want you to think months.

If you make the transition soon, they will be able to offer you a wider variety of services including TV and Internet. If you migrate you can retain your existing voice phone service with no change in rate.

What they're not saying clearly is that DSL is a copper service, not available on fiber. You will be migrated from DSL to FiOS internet, and if you choose to retain a similar speed/price package, they will offer you their 3/1 package which will be comparable performance to DSL, but I'm certain it will be a higher monthly price, with pressure and incentive to go faster. Once you've selected a speed which is part of a bundle (15/5 is current bundle minimum), you'll never be able to go backwards to slow and cheaper.

If you really want to keep your copper service, wait until they tell you they're shutting it off. Then migrate. But you already know that a second DV line will be cheaper than holding on to your existing copper line.

Weigh the pros and cons.


Light Guy

join:2006-05-12
Somerville, NJ
reply to birdfeedr

Unplugging the battery leads before a major Storm, and if power is lost, connecting the battery for outgoing calls only, would give you 6-8 hours of outgoing service, this could last you through an extended outage.
It would be nice if there was a setting on the BBU to NOT activate the BBU during an outage unless manually switched on.
Furthermore being able to remotely wire that switch using a spare pair of phone wiring would give one the ability to control the battery usage from the phone location.
Obviously not a great solution for Lifeline, but if such a switch existed it would extend outgoing service enough to give most people confidence during an extended outage.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

said by Light Guy:

Unplugging the battery leads before a major Storm, and if power is lost, connecting the battery for outgoing calls only, would give you 6-8 hours of outgoing service, this could last you through an extended outage.

While it would work as you describe, one flaw is ONT bootup time, which I've never tried to measure. And the possibility of accelerated ONT failure with repeated bootup cycles.

Extended outgoing service is a little different than confidence during emergency use.

But I like your idea.

Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to birdfeedr

I apologize for the delay. The longest blackout we ever experienced lasted 24 hours, so that's what I would like to plan for.

Meanwhile Hurricane Sandy is suppose to be heading up the east coast and I hope it won't be as bad as they are predicting.

Thank you for looking into this.

Sincerely, Libra