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nyrrule27

join:2007-12-06
Howell, NJ
reply to Libra

Re: Will Verizon shut down copper phone accounts?

yes they can shut down copper. they did it in a city in texas and they did it in wesley chapel florida. they basically said switch to fiber or get another carrier.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to norbert26

said by norbert26:

the FiOS install is very invasive. Unlike a transparent change of fiber added someplace away from the home FiOS requires a new drop brought in, an outlet to be provided, access to MY computer .

Since the topic is about copper phone accounts, it's not quite so invasive. An external ONT and the fiber drop is not invasive unless you have some heirloom plantings nearby and you don't want them trampled, help the installer find a way to protect the vegetation.

Typically the PS/BBU is inside with an additional low voltage power cable through the wall to the ONT. Typically, the PSU can be located near an existing outlet without too much difficulty. Yes, this part is an inside installation, just as with an interior ONT. Invasive? Yes, in the sense someone has to be there and an installer is inside your house. Typically, for a copper phone replacement, the ONT will be located near the existing NID.

Yes, there are exceptions since one size does not fit all. MDUs are an example.

For phone service, access to your computer is not needed. For FiOS internet, access to your computer isn't needed either, although the installer will ask for access because it helps verify you get the speed you were asking for.

One thing that Verizon *is* doing, maybe not all areas, is refusing to install new dry loop DSL, except perhaps through a CLEC.

One thing they are *not* doing, is upgrading copper network in your area. When it can't be repaired or capacity is used up, fiber becomes the transport method.

When you consider corporate vs. consumer, fiber vs. copper, regulated vs. unregulated, union vs. non-union, upgrade copper vs. replace with fiber, every point under consideration has pros and cons.

It's not a black and white picture. Nothing stays the same for long.


norbert26
Premium
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI

said by birdfeedr See Profile

One thing that Verizon *is* doing, maybe not all areas, is refusing to install new dry loop DSL, except perhaps through a CLEC.

One thing they are *not* doing, is upgrading copper network in your area. When it can't be repaired or capacity is used up, fiber becomes the transport method.

[/BQUOTE :

] They have stopped offering any DSL to new customers in my area except through a CLEC. Even for POTS one would be hard pressed to get such over copper you would most likely get it over fiber by default. Now as far as the CLEC if one is under contract and the copper pair fails and no replacement pair is available then the CLEC would have to relieve customer from contract or else Verizon would be obligated to repair said pair even if it means patch it up. Granted in time the copper will go away and it will be choose fiber or something else .



wmcbrine
213 251 145 96

join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD
kudos:1
reply to norbert26

said by norbert26:

Unlike a transparent change of fiber added someplace away from the home FiOS requires a new drop brought in, an outlet to be provided, access to MY computer .

There's really no need for them to access your computer.
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Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to birdfeedr

I will be interested in seeing your non-technical solution when you complete it. Thank you.

Here's a copy of the Notice Verizon put on my Verizon page:

"FiOS is Here!

We are in the process of converting your entire service area to our state-of-the-art fiber-optic network and we need your help!

Products you may currently subscribe to such as High Speed Internet (DSL) or voice services over our copper phone lines will no longer be available in your area once this transition is complete. In order to transfer you to our fiber network, we need to schedule an appointment to install new equipment at your location. Scheduling this appointment immediately will ensure you a worry-free experience with no service interruptions. Act now to avoid any disruption of your service by simply selecting an option below.

As a result of upgrading to fiber, we will be able to offer you a complete bundle of services to address all your communications and entertainment needs. The upgrade allows you to keep the voice service you have today and also gives you the option to subscribe to our amazing FiOS TV and FiOS Internet services.

Reminder: The move to fiber optics will not change your current Verizon services or rates and you will not be charged for the installation or for the equipment required for the fiber upgrade
NOTE: If you wish to simply disconnect your existing service, please contact your local business office."

This sounds a bit ominous to me. But I will probably wait it out.

Sincerely, Libra



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

1 recommendation

said by Libra:

I will be interested in seeing your non-technical solution when you complete it. Thank you.

One really non-technical solution is to run a BBU in front of the FiOS BBU. But this is not efficient.

My solution will be an adapter that will allow you to connect to an external battery to provide power to the ONT during an extended power outage.

I am testing operation with a 35AH battery. I will provide part numbers and step-by-step instructions.

My question for you is how long an extended power outage do you want to plan for? Longest I've ever seen here in 30 years is 4 days once, 2.5 days once, and 1 day three times, although I know others nearby have seen up to 7 days of outage. Very rare that a power outage lasts more than a few hours.

Others might say that the copper lines put the burden for power backup on the telco, but I say the difference in service price will pay for the added cost of backup power in your home.

This is really off-topic, so when ready, I will make a new topic.


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

1 recommendation

reply to Libra

Staying on-topic:

The letter says that VZ will *eventually* migrate everyone off of copper. While they're thinking years, they want you to think months.

If you make the transition soon, they will be able to offer you a wider variety of services including TV and Internet. If you migrate you can retain your existing voice phone service with no change in rate.

What they're not saying clearly is that DSL is a copper service, not available on fiber. You will be migrated from DSL to FiOS internet, and if you choose to retain a similar speed/price package, they will offer you their 3/1 package which will be comparable performance to DSL, but I'm certain it will be a higher monthly price, with pressure and incentive to go faster. Once you've selected a speed which is part of a bundle (15/5 is current bundle minimum), you'll never be able to go backwards to slow and cheaper.

If you really want to keep your copper service, wait until they tell you they're shutting it off. Then migrate. But you already know that a second DV line will be cheaper than holding on to your existing copper line.

Weigh the pros and cons.


Light Guy

join:2006-05-12
Somerville, NJ
reply to birdfeedr

Unplugging the battery leads before a major Storm, and if power is lost, connecting the battery for outgoing calls only, would give you 6-8 hours of outgoing service, this could last you through an extended outage.
It would be nice if there was a setting on the BBU to NOT activate the BBU during an outage unless manually switched on.
Furthermore being able to remotely wire that switch using a spare pair of phone wiring would give one the ability to control the battery usage from the phone location.
Obviously not a great solution for Lifeline, but if such a switch existed it would extend outgoing service enough to give most people confidence during an extended outage.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

said by Light Guy:

Unplugging the battery leads before a major Storm, and if power is lost, connecting the battery for outgoing calls only, would give you 6-8 hours of outgoing service, this could last you through an extended outage.

While it would work as you describe, one flaw is ONT bootup time, which I've never tried to measure. And the possibility of accelerated ONT failure with repeated bootup cycles.

Extended outgoing service is a little different than confidence during emergency use.

But I like your idea.

Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to birdfeedr

I apologize for the delay. The longest blackout we ever experienced lasted 24 hours, so that's what I would like to plan for.

Meanwhile Hurricane Sandy is suppose to be heading up the east coast and I hope it won't be as bad as they are predicting.

Thank you for looking into this.

Sincerely, Libra


tnsprin

join:2003-07-23
Bradenton, FL
kudos:1
reply to SRF26

said by SRF26:

There is no doubt fiber is the wave of the future, but it isn't going to replace the current copper infrastructure in urban areas like NYC for many years to come. IMO, fiber will only be run to replace copper as a last resort. It might be a cynical, but Verizon isn't going to run fiber (spend money) unless they are forced to do it.

Regards...JL

Well in areas of NYC hit hard by Sandy, they are making the move. They don't want to go to the expense of replacing all that damaged copper with more copper.


EddieBell

@optonline.net

When the storm hit, Verizon failed to activate their generators in the Long Beach NY central office. The result was the depressurizing of all the underground copper. After the storm, 96% of it had failed.

Verizon's answer to the problem is to make no effort to restore the copper customers. When you finally make contact with them, usually through the New York Public Service Commission, you are told they are abandoning all copper in Long Beach.

Then you are offered Fios at a higher rate. It's only after the intervention of the State PSC will you be offered your existing rate with fiber delivery.

So you can add Long Beach (General 1) to the list of CO's where copper has been abandoned.



nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:14

No, the Long Beach CO flooded out on the first floor - so the backup generating plant was under water. Kind of hard to run a backup generator when it is flooded...



EddieBell

@optonline.net

I thought their generators would be on the first floor. I suppose the batteries flooded too? What about the trailer mounted generator that was brought in before the flood?

Do you have some first hand knowledge about these events? It would be nice to know what really happened. This CO is almost 90 years old and never had a failure that was anything like this.

Guess I have to say goodbye to copper.

Eddie


McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

1 edit

Considering this was the biggest storm surge the east coast has seen in almost 90 years that would be the reason, no?

It's not like they put backup generators on stilts (Maybe they should though in hurricane/tsunami prone areas. After all, even the backup generators for the Fukushima Nuclear reactors cooling systems even got flooded out the same way).

Generators don't work underwater, and 15 feet covers 1st floor and trailer mounted. Electrical equipment doesn't work submerged in water, unless it's meant to of course.



EddieBell

@optonline.net

The Long Beach Central Office got zero to six inches of water on parts of its first floor. Most of the place didn't get any. The place is up two steps and the street got less than a foot at that location. Certainly the trailer generator didn't get any water. I know every employee left the CO during the storm, which is quite unusual. Typical of morale issues these days. Does anyone have any real information, other than incorrect guesses about the water height?


dmine45

join:2002-11-03
Fredericksburg, VA
reply to Libra

Copper is dead. Fiber is almost dead. The future is wireless. But what about those who want a "landline"?

Fixed wireless is the answer. at&t (landline) will be working with their cellular counterpart (at&t Mobility) to install it to rural areas in the next few years. It will be using the new LTE technology (aka 4G) for both voice and data.

A couple of years ago Verizon said that they don't plan on building out FiOS any more than it already is. They saw the handwriting on the wall. Wireless is the future. I don't like it, as I had hoped we would all be fed by fiber by now, but the cost to install that infrastructure would be so cost prohibitive it isn't funny.

The case in NYC due to Sandy is localized since a large amount of copper was wiped out (very old paper insulated copper lines) and to replace them with more modern copper lines would be so expensive that it's best to move people over to fiber. Same for those who have very long copper loops. It's just best to move them over to fiber IF it's even available.

Overall - wireless is the future. FiOS isn't. Sadly.



norbert26
Premium
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI

said by dmine45:

Copper is dead. Fiber is almost dead. The future is wireless. But what about those who want a "landline"?

Fixed wireless is the answer. at&t (landline) will be working with their cellular counterpart (at&t Mobility) to install it to rural areas in the next few years. It will be using the new LTE technology (aka 4G) for both voice and data.

A couple of years ago Verizon said that they don't plan on building out FiOS any more than it already is. They saw the handwriting on the wall. Wireless is the future. I don't like it, as I had hoped we would all be fed by fiber by now, but the cost to install that infrastructure would be so cost prohibitive it isn't funny.

The case in NYC due to Sandy is localized since a large amount of copper was wiped out (very old paper insulated copper lines) and to replace them with more modern copper lines would be so expensive that it's best to move people over to fiber. Same for those who have very long copper loops. It's just best to move them over to fiber IF it's even available.

Overall - wireless is the future. FiOS isn't. Sadly.

Sure for phone just add enough cell towers to fill in coverage holes and fill in rural areas. I have a verizon home connect which is a cell phone base station you plug "fixed land line phones into" . It will just need an updated LTE model in the future. However we are not just dealing with just phone. There is the issue of internet and even worse legacy TV service. There is not enough spectrum to move all this over to wireless . The main reason for fiber was legacy TV and internet. It only made sense to move phone over to fiber rather then continue to maintain a copperline network for POTS in the long run.

dmine45

join:2002-11-03
Fredericksburg, VA

said by norbert26:

Sure for phone just add enough cell towers to fill in coverage holes and fill in rural areas. I have a verizon home connect which is a cell phone base station you plug "fixed land line phones into" . It will just need an updated LTE model in the future. However we are not just dealing with just phone. There is the issue of internet and even worse legacy TV service. There is not enough spectrum to move all this over to wireless . The main reason for fiber was legacy TV and internet. It only made sense to move phone over to fiber rather then continue to maintain a copperline network for POTS in the long run.

TV can be streamed over LTE, but it would be a bandwidth hog. I think for rural areas satellite would be best. There are LTE devices where you plug your landlines into now, and I think that will be the future.

jcondon

join:2000-05-27
Fishkill, NY
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to PhoenixDown

said by PhoenixDown See Profile
Some providers used to sell i-dsl -- DSL service over fiber which was just ISDN service without a B-Channel.

I am pretty sure it still had two B channels. They only did data. On IDSN you had two B channels that you could use for voice or data.

I think on IDSL they even used the D channel as well to give you upto 144Kbps.


McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX
reply to dmine45

said by dmine45:

Copper is dead. Fiber is almost dead. The future is wireless. But what about those who want a "landline"?

I got a big LOL out of this. Fiber is almost dead, huh? It only runs the entire internet and all of FiOS. Verizon has no plans to ditch existing FiOS deployments.