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ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

Keeping (upgrading) to (current) code - when does it apply?

My subject may be a bit misleading. But here's my question:

What size of a project determines whether or not you have to bring the whole house up to a given code?

This thread got me thinking:

»House rewire - How many circuits

In it, someone mentions that in all rooms now, AFCI breakers are mandated.

So, if your house was built before this was required, and you do something like, say, add a circuit or, perhaps, solar panels does this mean you magically have to bring everything up to code?

Or does a bigger project - say, a whole panel replacement begin to mandate that AFCI breakers are required?

I guess the same could be asked if you have a situation where a GFCI outlet is required, but one isn't installed because the circuit was there before GFCI was mandated and you install a new circuit to, say, your living room to power your 800" TV, do you have to bring that non-related circuit up to code at the same time?

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

Nunya and Whizkid will be able to answer on the details, but something like adding a new circuit wouldn't require updating ALL the other circuits, otherwise it would be insane.

I'm renovating my basement, so that means 6-7 new circuits, all of which have to be up to the new code (And I'm going beyond the code too). However it would be insane for me to have to dig up all the old wiring from the upstairs floors to bring those up to code as well. It would be even more insane to require such an upgrade if you were adding ONE circuit for a dishwasher, or a receptacle in the utility room.

On the panel swap and solar panels, I'm not sure. Again, Whizkid and Nunya would be able to tell you.

davidg
Good Bye My Friend
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join:2002-06-15
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not an expert by any means, but MY understanding of it is when you modify an existing circuit you have to bring that circuit up to current code for your area. an inspector here may say changing to AFCI is not necessary if you are just adding recepts to walls to meet spacing requirements, where another may say you have to. But i believe many(if not most) would say changing a panel would require updating to AFCI where current code alls for them.

As in most electrical questions here, call you AHJ and get their advice. They are familiar with the requirements in your area and what work falls under "grandfathered" and what changes mean bringing part or all of the system up to current code.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall

MVM

Define "modify". Some could argue that changing a receptacle qualifies as "modify" and therefore the circuit all the way back to the breaker box needs brought up to code. Yes ?
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

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Check with your building department. In some areas here in Florida, if the cost of the project exceeds 25% the value of the home the homeowner has to bring the entire home up to current code. When I lived in South Florida, I knew someone that did an addition to his home in two stages, a year apart, in order to avoid upgrading the entire home to current codes.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

said by Mr Matt:

Check with your building department.

I'm not going to bother my local folks for something that is just idle curiosity looking for generic answers.

I could understand if you're modifying an existing circuit and would need to bring it up to code. That makes sense. Even if not required by code, if you're in there fumbling around, might as well do it right.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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nunya

MVM

I can only speak knowledgeably of electrical code.
It depends on where you are at. In general, any modification where the "building finish" is removed, you'll probably be doing code upgrade.

Some municipalities go beyond this. In one place I service, K&T and aluminum wiring are not allowed. Period. The city will not allow a home sale to proceed until it has been rewired. Is this legal? IMO, no. Is it still in practice? Yes. I've seen several home sales fall though because of this. I've also seen people walk away from their houses because of this.
In most other cities, K&T and AL wire must be replaced where exposed. Some call it the "light of day" rule. Once it sees the light of day, it needs to be addressed.
In a gut rehab or major renovation, it must all be removed.

These aren't an NEC requirement, but a requirement of the municipality. It's basically enforced common sense. You would be an idiot not to rewire in those circumstances, yet there are people who go out of their way not to. Typically "flippers".

Up until 2011, the code didn't really address "upgrades". In 210.12 (AFCI stuff) it basically says if you modify an existing circuit where AFCI is now required by code, you must bring the entire circuit to AFCI. This is for residential.
There is some legal contention regarding this rule, as it is possible the NEC has overstepped its boundary. Almost all codes of past have taken a "grandfather" approach over the years. The existing structure is grandfathered to the code that was in force when it was built.
Just an example, a house built in 1960 obviously wouldn't pass the requirements of today. But we cannot realistically bring a house up to new standards every time code is revised. We have to raze every house built over six years ago and start over.
8744675
join:2000-10-10
Decatur, GA

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When I had my service upgraded from the 1950's fuse box, the electrician had to make sure the rest of the house was updated, mostly that there were GFI's around wet areas. The inspector passed everything, but did make the electrician put a jumper wire between the hot and cold water pipes at the water heater to meet new code.

I would say that if it's going to be permitted and inspected, it probably will have to be updated. It won't take much. Ungrounded outlets still meet code for lamps and light duty loads in living rooms, dens and bedrooms, so not a whole lot has to be changed for an upgrade.

davidg
Good Bye My Friend
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said by Hall:

Define "modify". Some could argue that changing a receptacle qualifies as "modify" and therefore the circuit all the way back to the breaker box needs brought up to code. Yes ?

which is why i said check with the AHJ, i've had different inspectors within the same permit office say totally contradictory things. there is room for interpretation, and each inspector will interpret in their own way. it's not supposed to be that way, but it does happen.

My FIL has an RV that he wants to park at our house. I called the county permit office to see what we needed to do and was told no permit necessary and no inspection required if i just put an outlet right off my outdoor service panel(2 pole breakers are all in it feeding the inside single poles). i talked to another inspector that came by our office for a radio issue and was told that not only must i get a permit, but i MUST use a licensed electrician per county code! still waiting on them to figure out who is correct.

bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
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join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA
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My first house was built in 1927 and had 30(?) amp capacity with two circuits. I added a 100 amp panel with 4 new circuits to it, keeping the old two circuits and adding a bunch of plugs and stuff. The old circuits were allowed to continue since they weren't overloaded, and everything was approved by the city. I didn't remodel anything else.

I should add that the old fuse box was replaced with a junction box and the old two circuits connected there to the new box through romex cables.

leibold
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Sunnyvale, CA
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said by ke4pym:

My subject may be a bit misleading. But here's my question:

What size of a project determines whether or not you have to bring the whole house up to a given code?

There are no nationwide applicable answers to that question. You have to check with your local authorities. For most projects in our area there are two relevant dollar amounts (based on project cost):
The first dollar amount is the one triggers the requirement to bring the "entire home to current code". While it is commonly phrased this way, it doesn't really mean absolutely every aspect of the home construction and focuses primarily on safety features.
The second dollar amount is perhaps even more important since that is the cap on how much the code compliance upgrades may increase your project costs. A remodel/renovation is not supposed to put you into bankruptcy because you are catching up with 50 years of code improvements. Everything that is newly installed or modified as part of your project must comply to current codes but once you reach the cap you do not have to perform any other code compliance upgrades to other parts of the home.
linus5171
join:2004-02-10

linus5171

Member

It may depend on whether the improvements bring to light a safety hazard. We ran into that when we changed the name on the electric account in my wife's old house. The electric department saw something they didn't like and called the building inspector who found "a safety hazard" in the electric coming into the house. Even though the line had been like that for over 40 years they required us to run a new line and put in a new panel for over $2,000. Legal, who knows, but they threatened fines and to shut off the electric until we complied. On a plus side, they didn't make us rewire the whole house.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

The POCO here is not very likely to find anything wrong with the drop to the house or the meter and meter base since it's their responsibility.
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

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Whenever the skilled electricians need extra cash they will call the inspector and say we need to bring the whole house up to code. We replaced one isolated outlet on a repair and the whole hose needs to be to code. Then your name goes on an insider list so all electricians know to rip you off now. Even if you call for a second opinion. The inspector gets a kickback for agreeing and all are happy.
That is why the licencing to keep honesty out of it. Money matters. All skilled trades are like that.
Yes safety matters and around here what caps. As long as you can pay or take out a loan keep giving us cash. its for the inspector and trades not safety for the children.
Now when there was the housing boom years ago the new builders would just pay off everyone so the houses could go up fast as possible darn the quality or code. Throw wallboard over everything before the inspection and say it is for the customers benefit to catch up on the building backlog here is your payoff.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

2 recommendations

nunya

MVM

This post is so full of crap it isn't even humorous. I would add more, but I have to go update my "people to rip off" list so the other guys can download it on Monday.

jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ

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In my parts, people will tear down an entire house except for one wall so the work only qualifies as a remodel.

Red_Menace
poking around since 1978
join:2001-11-03
Fruita, CO

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I am going to guess that to post something that inane, you do not have a skilled trade and/or were stupid enough to get ripped off by some unscrupulous contractor.
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

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nonymous (banned) to jjoshua

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said by jjoshua:

In my parts, people will tear down an entire house except for one wall so the work only qualifies as a remodel.

That still requires a payment to the inspector.
I do know a few times in the past especially during the housing boom there where clean sweeps of inspectors for pulling garbage in various places in AZ.

Or get paid to replace light bulbs.
»Re: LED lightbulbs

pike
Premium Member
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC

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said by nonymous:

Whenever the skilled electricians need extra cash they will call the inspector and say we need to bring the whole house up to code. We replaced one isolated outlet on a repair and the whole hose needs to be to code. Then your name goes on an insider list so all electricians know to rip you off now. Even if you call for a second opinion. The inspector gets a kickback for agreeing and all are happy.

said by nonymous:

That still requires a payment to the inspector.
I do know a few times in the past especially during the housing boom there where clean sweeps of inspectors for pulling garbage in various places in AZ.

Or get paid to replace light bulbs.
»Re: LED lightbulbs

LOL, if you have a problem with nunya See Profile, perhaps you should take it up in PM rather than post this subversive nonsense.

On the other hand, it's not beyond the realm of possibility to have crooked electricians and inspectors. Fortunately we don't live in communist country and you are therefore free to obtain second, third, or however many opinions you would like on a job estimate. Likewise inspectors do ultimately have to defer to their supervisors and worst case, you can appeal to your councilperson or other elected official if you have an issue with their ruling.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

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said by jjoshua:

In my parts, people will tear down an entire house except for one wall so the work only qualifies as a remodel.

Around here, it's common to leave two walls standing; so that it's a renovation, rather then new construction... It allows existing lot coverage and setbacks to be maintained; even if they don't meet current requirements.

To the OP - I'm not familiar with your codes or region... Here, it's "substantial modification" that will trigger having to bring something into current code; and it really is upto the AHJ/inspector, as a judgement call...

Basically, if you could reasonably bring it into current code as part of the work you're doing, they expect you to do so...

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to ke4pym

MVM

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Depends on where you live. Generally, one never has to 'bring the whole building' up to code; unless the renovation is so extensive that the occupancy permit will be revoked during the renovation.

As for AFCI circuits; generally, municipalities (that use the 2008 or 2011 NEC) require for circuits that require AFCI:
1. New circuits - AFCI.
2. Extended existing circuits - as is.
3. Panel board / load center replacement - circuits left as is.

Simply modifying a circuit generally does not mean it must become AFCI protected. However, your mileage may vary. Check with your local building department or inspector.

Pacrat
Old and Cranky
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join:2001-03-10
Cortland, OH

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Around here, with my very limited experience, it seems that a repair may be made without updating compliance... but any changes(updates, modifications, new installs, etc) require applicable code compliance.