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dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to elwoodblues

Re: Gasoline Prices Below 99 Cents/Litre By Christmas

said by elwoodblues:

said by dirtyjeffer:

Nissan is likely one of the largest CVT user out there, and they recently dropped their CVT warranty from 10 years to 5 years...perhaps that tells you something about them?..

Yeah it's called reducing the exposure and thus the warranty liability you have to carry on the books. You look more profitable in a shorter term.

of course...however, are they also telling us they anticipate some heavy repair/warranty bills down the road...if it was only ever 5 years, it wouldn't be a big deal...but to offer 10 years, and then drop it to 5 years certainly raises an eyebrow...sure, it could be trouble free, but if that were the case, why not simply leave it at 10 years??
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Gone
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reply to dirtyjeffer
For what it's worth, the biggest draw to a DSG isn't the fuel economy improvement, it's about the improved driving experience.


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Halifax, NS
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And how many cars with DSG transmissions have you owned?


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by vue666:

And how many cars with DSG transmissions have you owned?

Aside from a friend who had a Jetta with one, this is the way VW markets the DSG themselves and is easily obtainable by anyone with even the most limited search skills.

Since we're asking questions, how many DSGs have you owned, vue? Any experience with them at all? While we're asking questions, do you even have any experience with CVTs aside from snowmobiles?


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Halifax, NS
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How can you claim they provide a better driving experience if you've never driven one yourself?

As far as marketing...well that's another story now isn't it... Marketing is all about hype....


Kardinal
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

said by Kardinal:

so the days of a 'simple' transmission service are numbered.

Can you provide a link or is that just your opinion?

CVT type trannys are not something new... Snowmobiles have been using similar belt type trannys for a while...

Whut?

CVTs aren't something new in and of themselves, but they are in cars/trucks, and between them becoming more popular and the increased number of single/dual clutch automated manuals in things like Audi/VW/Ford/Hyundai and CVTs in Nissans etc, the number of vehicles coming with the traditional planetary gear style of transmission is decreasing, and with it the 'simple' transmission services that come with them. CVTs and DSG-style transmissions have more complicated service work (by your own admission, given your detailed info on VW). DSGs are simpler than a CVT, but a CVT will, by their very nature and design, give you better fuel economy due to the infinite number of available ratios, so they both have their place. CVTs are used in a some hybrids and super-economy models of current cars to maximize the fuel economy numbers.

It's an observation, an opinion, whatever....it's based on simple facts of what is being sold these days. Feel free to argue them if you feel you have facts that contradict this.

Izzat bettah?
--
"Pro amicis mortui amicis vivimus" (We live in the hearts of friends for whom we died)
the inscription on the Memorial in the Canadian War Cemetery at Groesbeek, the Netherlands


Gone
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

How can you claim they provide a better driving experience if you've never driven one yourself?

Because VWs claim all along has not been about fuel efficiency, it has been about improved driving experience. That's what VW says.

And, considering you haven't driven one either, who are you to say that what VW claims isn't true? At least I've got the word of someone I trust saying that it is an improved driving experience when shifting sequential gears. What do you have, vue?


vue666
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1 edit
I never said it was a better driving experience or not... Just asking what you based your comment on... So it is anecdotal evidence, you base your opinion on the opinion of a friend... That's fine...

However if a friend told me chocolate tasted good I would certainly take his word but I would not base my opinion until I tasted chocolate...

What VW advertises about their DSG trannys or what GM says about their Volt is just that hype. Advertising...

The DSG is a relatively new transmission, and how it will stand up long term compared to older style automatics that have been around a lot longer is unknown...


Gone
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said by vue666:

The DSG is a relatively new transmission

The dual clutch transmissions - which the DSG is - was designed during WW2, so it's not exactly a new design.

The fact that it was only put in a production vehicle in the early 2000s is of the same relevance to CVTs being introduced at approximately the same time yet being used for other purposes long before.


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Halifax, NS
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said by Gone:

said by vue666:

The DSG is a relatively new transmission

The dual clutch transmissions - which the DSG is - was designed during WW2, so it's not exactly a new design.

The fact that it was only put in a production vehicle in the early 2000s is of the same relevance to CVTs being introduced at approximately the same time yet being used for other purposes long before.

Yes designed by Adolphe Kégresse of France prior to WWII but designed on paper only... Not available in the consumer market until recently... Hence unproven....


dirtyjeffer
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reply to vue666
i have driven them, and if you read any review on a vehicle equipped with that such a transmission, you will read similar responses...VW uses DSGs in their "pedestrian" vehicles like TDi models and GTis (most vehicles with the turbo engine get the DSG)...Audi uses them, as does Ferrari and Lamborghini...VW has been doing them the longest though (about 12 years in the consumer market), as it was launched after successful development and deployment in racing (i believe under the Audi moniker)...Hyundai has recently designed one as well, although it doesn't seem as well received (it is their first attempt), and Ford has one as well...although the Ford unit isn't a hydraulic one, it uses electrical actuators to manipulate the gear changes...while this means there is no fluid change required, the operation of the device isn't as smooth and fluid as the VW model...it makes sense VWs unit works so well, they have been doing it the longest and have sold millions of them...if brands like Hyundai and Ford continue to improve their units, it is quite possible they may become equally "premium" in feel and performance...i would imagine it is costly to develop and improve, so we will see what their commitment is to them.

fuel economy, driving dynamics and practicality all rolled up into one:
»www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ··· S63Oh0#!
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


vue666
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Halifax, NS
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1 edit
I thought it was Porsche who used them for racing... Not sure though...

I believe Borg Warner makes some parts for the DSG trannys...


dirtyjeffer
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

Yes designed by Adolphe Kégresse of France prior to WWII but designed on paper only... Not available in the consumer market until recently... Hence unproven....

the first DSG was used in Porsche racing cars in the 80s...it was first used for the consumer market in 2002 (2003 model year)...it's been around for a decade and has sold a TON of units (likely at least a million or more)...it is not "unproven".
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:
I thought it was Porsche you used them for racing... Not sure though...
yes, i thought it may have been Audi, but it was Porsche.

quote:
I believe Borg Warner makes some parts for the DSG trannys...

Borg Warner helped design the unit, which was then licensed to VW to produce.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


vue666
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Halifax, NS
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2 edits
reply to dirtyjeffer
Unproven when compared to traditional trannys...

Of course perspective is relative...

Will the more costly maintenance and servicing of DSG trannys result in a higher or lower total cost of ownership is uncertain...

And then there will be the costly rebuilds and repairs when the warranty has expired... I'm doubting it is something one of the transmission chains like Mister Transmission or Cottman be able to tackle... So it's off to the dealer...


Kardinal
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reply to dirtyjeffer
said by dirtyjeffer:

Audi uses them, as does Ferrari and Lamborghini...

Ferrari just started with a DSG in the new California and 458; up to then, it was a semi-automated manual that uses a single clutch that is compute operated rather than with the driver's left foot. The Gallardo still uses a single-clutch (called 'E-gear'), as does the new Aventador, but they are much smoother and better than the early flappy-paddle single clutch transmissions.

Porsche's PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplung, aka Tiptronic/Tiptronic S) is one of the first DSG boxes to be available to the general public. It is available in the Boxter, Cayman, 911 and Panamera models.
--
"Pro amicis mortui amicis vivimus" (We live in the hearts of friends for whom we died)
the inscription on the Memorial in the Canadian War Cemetery at Groesbeek, the Netherlands


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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For what it is worth Car & Driver magazine preferred the manual tranny over the dsg when test a VW GTI..

»www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ··· e-page-2


Kardinal
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They don't like the DSG in the Focus either:

»www.caranddriver.com/comparisons ··· l-page-6

We were disappointed in the PowerShift dual-clutch transmission, which feels like it is programmed to mimic a conventional automatic instead of a manual with sporting intentions. Programming wasn’t the only problem we had with the transmission: At low speeds when the car was cold, we noted numerous disconcerting clunks and jolts. Additionally, we could feel the clutch chattering as we crept along in traffic, and the shifts were slow (for a dual-clutch unit) and soft. Put it in sport mode, and the shifts get faster, but they’re still nowhere near as quick and crisp as Volkswagen’s DSG, and the shift logic seems programmed only to burn more fuel by never upshifting, not to provide enthusiastic response.


--
"Pro amicis mortui amicis vivimus" (We live in the hearts of friends for whom we died)
the inscription on the Memorial in the Canadian War Cemetery at Groesbeek, the Netherlands

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to Gone
said by Gone:

The fact that it was only put in a production vehicle in the early 2000s is of the same relevance to CVTs being introduced at approximately the same time yet being used for other purposes long before.

DAF in Holland was producing CVT automobile transmissions in the late 1950's.

CVT's were banned by F1 in 1994 due to fears that well funded teams would dominate the production/use of them to the detriment of the sport (ie. make it as boring as Schumacher winning every race for years).

Japan is currently building a new design 48 tonne main battle tank using a CVT derivative.


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
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Halifax, NS
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I maybe 'Ol Skool' but I much prefer the feel of a clutch and knowledge I have control of my car and not my car has control over me...


Shrug

@videotron.ca
Seems a batch of hybrids caught fire and exploded due to their batteries during the storm.

»updates.jalopnik.com/post/346697 ··· fire-and

Guess homeowners should ask their insurance for car explosion protection along with flood protection.


Gone
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Electric devices mixed with impure water will generally produce poor results. What else would you expect?


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Halifax, NS
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reply to Shrug
said by Shrug :

Seems a batch of hybrids caught fire and exploded due to their batteries during the storm.

»updates.jalopnik.com/post/346697 ··· fire-and

Guess homeowners should ask their insurance for car explosion protection along with flood protection.

Was Justin Bieber behind the wheel of any of these exploded Fisker Karmas? LOL


HiVolt
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said by vue666:

Was Justin Bieber behind the wheel of any of these exploded Fisker Karmas? LOL

We can only dream, eh?

Did you hear that this turd will be "performing" during the Grey Cup halftime show?

I'm no CFL fan, but holy crap couldn't they find anyone else?
--



Gone
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... wha?!


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

For what it is worth Car & Driver magazine preferred the manual tranny over the dsg when test a VW GTI..

»www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ··· e-page-2

of course...true drivers prefer a manual...but most of live in the city, and shifting the gears gets tiring fast when you spend most of your journey through rush hour stop and go traffic.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Kardinal
said by Kardinal:

They don't like the DSG in the Focus either:

»www.caranddriver.com/comparisons ··· l-page-6

We were disappointed in the PowerShift dual-clutch transmission, which feels like it is programmed to mimic a conventional automatic instead of a manual with sporting intentions. Programming wasn’t the only problem we had with the transmission: At low speeds when the car was cold, we noted numerous disconcerting clunks and jolts. Additionally, we could feel the clutch chattering as we crept along in traffic, and the shifts were slow (for a dual-clutch unit) and soft. Put it in sport mode, and the shifts get faster, but they’re still nowhere near as quick and crisp as Volkswagen’s DSG, and the shift logic seems programmed only to burn more fuel by never upshifting, not to provide enthusiastic response.

yea, the one used in the focus is a hydraulic unit (unlike the electric unit in the Fiesta), but it's a first gen unit...VW has a 10 year head start here...as i said before, if Ford sticks to it, refines it and continues to invest to improve it, it will get better...it just depends on whether they will do that...i would imagine with the increasing pressure to improve fuel economy, they will.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
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London, ON
reply to vue666
said by vue666:

I maybe 'Ol Skool' but I much prefer the feel of a clutch and knowledge I have control of my car and not my car has control over me...

you have control of the car with a DSG transmission...a DSG is essentially a manual transmission whose gears are actuated using hydraulic actuation rather than you using your hand on a shift linkage...as well, they have a "manual" mode (either on the shift lever or paddles) that allow you to control the shifting yourself...it gives you all the benefits of a manual and all the benefits of an automatic.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Black Box

join:2002-12-21
reply to dirtyjeffer
Well, I drive a manual (and the model has a notoriously hard clutch) in Toronto traffic everyday. In fact, I never owned an automatic.

Once you've done it for a while you don't even think about it. Maybe you plan your speed so by the time you get too close to the car in front it moves.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!
Yes, I CanChat. Can You?


dirtyjeffer
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i've had numerous manuals over the years (including several motorcycles)...it's lost its "coolness".