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tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2

Not Working

So far ISIS is little more then a joke. I so want it to work but it appears, even after the year of delays that they still cannot get basic service right.

The map of vendors on their website is a joke. No ability to search or narrow down the area. For example, in Salt Lake City it starts at the middle and you need to go through page after page just to branch out. This makes no sense. It's not like this is new tech. So if I want to find a vendor 20 miles away from downtown SLC, I need to go through page after page of locations (around 20 pages) before I start to get close. I'm then also pulling up all of the other vendors in all locations.

I stopped by a Home Dept on the list. No way to pay with ISIS and no one even knew about it. I did not see any electronic device to even read NFC in the phone. Nothing with the ISIS symbol on it. Does ISIS really expect people to just wander into places and kept trying to pay with their system? Gee ISIS, how about if you make your possible customers do all of the leg work for you? That is a sure what to get ahead of Google Wallet that has been out for over a year.

So far, a joke.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
ISIS isn't as exclusive as they make it sound. It's just a standard contactless EMV transaction. Something that most Home Depot cashiers don't have a clue how to process so here's how it works. Note, this does NOT work at the self checkout:

1. When you get the total touch your contactless EMV card (including a Google Wallet or ISIS virtual card) to the contactless reader (clearly labeled above the PIN Pad).

2. When prompted for a PIN number press "CANCEL" - do NOT enter the PIN from your phone.

3. Look at amazed/confused look on cashier.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
Good info, thanks Markie. I think ISIS really needs to step up their game. I've recommended that they allow their map of vendors to allow for a zip code search. Otherwise it's useless. I think they also need to give more info on their web site for end customers. I video tutorial of real world use of their system and such. Bottom line, if they don't get people to use their system, it will fail. Yes, it's just rolling out but they have had an extra 18 months to do things like this.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
For me, the big problem is the lack of point of sale training. I'm not in an ISIS market but I do use Google Wallet wherever I can. Today, it doesn't save me time. It takes time. Explaining it to cashiers. Looking like an idiot when the NFC reader is broken (more common than you'd think, sometimes the things aren't even plugged in). Remembering where you can actually use it (not many places yet).

So, why do I use it when I can? Because I think there's great potential in it and seeing transaction volume is what will make it take off. Often I'm the first customer a cashier has seen use it. Even contactless cards aren't used often - most customers swipe their contactless capable card. Because the system just doesn't work that well today.

Lack of transaction volume is WHY it doesn't work well. Merchants aren't interested in installing contactless equipment if nobody is using it. Cashiers aren't going to report terminal problems for a technology a tiny fraction of a percent of customers use - resulting in broken/disconnected readers that worsen the customer experience and drive away the few who dare use it.

Things are going to get better. ISIS is rolling out in two cities for specifically this reason - to increase interest and to allow retailers the ability to focus on training cashiers and testing that contactless EMV payments WORK before people come in trying to use it.

Also, the push to EMV will make contactless more available. New EMV PIN pads will be deployed that have contact and contactless EMV, along with a magnetic stripe reader all in one pad. You'll see PIN pads like this one - »www.verifone.com/products/hardwa···d/vx-820 - in stores soon. That pad supports contact EMV, contactless EMV, and magnetic stripe all in one device. No possibility for a disconnected or improperly configured contactless reader accessory.

Remember that Visa is requiring processors to handle EMV payments (contact AND contactless) by April 2013 and has incentives for merchants to accept EMV (contact AND contactless) starting October 2012 (NOW).

Contactless may never become popular, but it will work in a heck of a lot more places this time next year. Ironically, the push to contact EMV cards will be what drives that.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
reply to tcope
P.S. The Visa payWave locator lists a heck of a lot of places as "coming soon" - »usa.visa.com/locators/visa-paywa···ator.jsp

I don't know what card network ISIS uses, Google Wallet is MasterCard, but for the most part anywhere that accepts Visa accepts MasterCard and vice versa.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
That is the unknown part. ISIS's website has almost no info for the end customer. The person who handled their twitter account does not seem to know the facts either.

I'm pretty sure about the following... a merchant only needs to have VISA PayWave or Mastercard PayPass to be able to accpet phone payments (there are other systems as well) but they also then need to be an ISIS merchant. Last I read, this was something like $5/year but I'm sure they need to sign paperwork. So just because a merchant has PayPass or PayWave, this does not mean they can accept ISIS payments.

ISIS has a list of ISIS vendors on their website but the map is crap... you can't narrow the search or search for a vendor.

Other then that, ISIS's website just tells people to look for the ISIS symbol on the pay device and you can use ISIS. But in the real world, I don't think those symbols are displayed, cashiers don't know about the system and ISIS never gives good instructions to the customer on how to use the system (as you point out, I think you choose debit and don't enter your PIN on the system... you hold the phone next to the device). Come on ISIS... you've had over a year... you can't put together a short video on this?!!!).

ISIS is _not_ going to catch on if ISIS makes customers work hard to use the system. Also, it would be so very ISIS is make it easy to use. I'm still giving them time but they have had a ton of it already.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to meowmeow
said by meowmeow:

For me, the big problem is the lack of point of sale training. I'm not in an ISIS market but I do use Google Wallet wherever I can. Today, it doesn't save me time. It takes time. Explaining it to cashiers. Looking like an idiot when the NFC reader is broken (more common than you'd think, sometimes the things aren't even plugged in). Remembering where you can actually use it (not many places yet).

Just read this first post. YES, YES, YES to everything you mention!!!!!!!

It's simply goint to fail is ISIS expects customers to do all of their work. I see no reason why the phone carriers don't help with the education as well as they have a stake in the gam. Heck, T-mobile is listed on their merchant offer list... why does TM not have an offer out there on opening day? Give 50% off or something. That would get people in their doors and their own employees can then show people how easy it is to use the system. I might be alone on this and I'm not a very bright person but that seems like a win for everyone. I just don't see why they would not have done something like that. Heck, get that word out and TM could even install secure SIMs at the same time. As it is now, everyone just seems to be sticking their heads in the sand and hoping people spend a ton of their time trying hard to hunt down merchants and using the system.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
reply to tcope
I maybe wrong but I don't believe that it's actually TRUE that they need to be an ISIS merchant - I think that just gets them the right to display the ISIS stickers, be included in their merchant locator (though it seems ISIS is doing that anyways), etc. Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure anyone who can take contactless EMV today can take ISIS as-is.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
reply to tcope
I think ISIS expects to become something consumers demand as Visa's EMV incentive program will result in far more contactless EMV merchants a year from now. I don't think that they want to have a ton of expenses, rather I think they're hoping customers beat down the door demanding their product. Which is to say, I agree with you totally!

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to meowmeow
said by meowmeow:

I maybe wrong but I don't believe that it's actually TRUE that they need to be an ISIS merchant - I think that just gets them the right to display the ISIS stickers, be included in their merchant locator (though it seems ISIS is doing that anyways), etc. Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure anyone who can take contactless EMV today can take ISIS as-is.

I'm pretty certain that they do need to be a part of the ISIS network in order to accept payments via ISIS. I have read that ISIS merchants need to sign up and pay a fee. Last I read it was $5/year.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to meowmeow
said by meowmeow:

rather I think they're hoping customers beat down the door demanding their product.

I think perhaps ISIS is just focusing so much on gaining merchants that they really don't realize that they still have a hard push in getting end customers to use the system. I get the impression that they really don't have a lot of skin in the game in that they use other, existing, hardward. It's really a lot of contracts and that is about it. But it's still big bucks and it's just not going to catch on unless your spoon feed the customer into using the system. I _really_ think once people use it a time or two that they will like it. I also think combining it with loyalty programs and offers is a great idea. You buy 5 meals some place and the next one is free, 20% off coupons, etc. All this info is kept on your phone in one place. Again, unless this is all put in people's faces... they are not going to understand or use the system. They will look at this like a lot of peole do...., why do I need another way to pay when by debit/credit card does just fine.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
reply to tcope
I *believe* that is only to display the logo. I believe it uses either Visa or Mastercard and presents itself as a contactless EMV card (payWave/PayPass). I maybe wrong on this but that's the impression I've got from all sides including their own website: »www.paywithisis.com//where-to-use.xhtml

Note that under the "look for these symbols" they include the generic contactless EMV symbol. That tells me they DON'T have to be an ISIS merchant. I think being an ISIS merchant gets you the stickers, training material, etc. I maybe wrong on this though - which proves how unclear they are being. Unlike Google which makes it very clear "Google Wallet works anywhere MasterCard PayPass works"

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
ISIS has a list of merchants that accept ISIS and it's certainly not every location with EMV. Also, under the map it states the following, "Isis Ready locations shown above represent points of contactless payment acceptance where the Isis Mobile Wallet may be used".

Their merchant information appears to indicate that you need to contact them in order to participate:

»www.paywithisis.com//merchant-landing.xhtml

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
No, but I believe it will *WORK* at every location with *contactless* EMV. I don't KNOW. It's just what's implied multiple times by ISIS. Do you have an ISIS device? Try to find somewhere that supports contactless EMV (and it actually WORKS, many places have the PIN pads but it doesn't work) but isn't on the ISIS list and try using ISIS. I BELIEVE it will work. Waiting to hear real world experiences of course. Even then it'll be hard to tell because a lot of times contactless terminals just don't work. McDonald's at the Exxon in Missoula, MT, at least one terminal each at both McDonald's in Great Falls, MT, and some terminals at Home Depot in Kalispell, MT are a few places I can tell you with certainty that it does NOT work even though it should.

PS watch the video on ISIS website it clearly says look for ANY of these icons, and one of them is the contactless EMV icon.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
I will try this out. Might take a day or two to find such a location. I just used it at McDonalds and it worked perfectly. Of course, they are on the list.

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
Awesome, though I'd be surprised if you even could find such a location. Just having the terminal isn't good enough (if ISIS doesn't work try a PayPass/payWave card, I bet it won't either...). The biggest PITA of the whole thing is the number of contactless terminals floating around that DON'T WORK. Sometimes, they've never worked. Others, they were intentionally disabled (Best Buy... I'm looking at you. Best Buy didn't like that contactless debit transactions are charged as credit transactions).

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
reply to tcope
Here's more info: »gigaom.com/2012/10/23/isis-mobil···-austin/

ISIS specifically states that it will work with "any contactless payment display" (obviously referring to contactless EMV, as there's plenty of proprietary non-EMV contactless payment in use in the world, such as Oyster for London Underground). They also state that the reason many merchants on the site have never heard of it is that they're simply using MasterCard's database.

That also implies they're running on the MasterCard network since I'd imagine they have to license that database. A much more user-accessible form of that database is the MasterCard PayPass locator

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
Yup, ISIS themselves have confirmed in their twitters that it will work as you mentioned... pretty much at all Mastercard Paypass and VISA Paywave stations. I'm trying really hard to rememeber that it's brand new and only out in two test markets but I really think ISIS should be doing a better job in getting this info out to the public. Perhaps they will... perhaps they won't.

I have seen several articles where the media is pointing out that merchants don't even know they can accept ISIS payments or anything about ISIS... even the "ISIS merchants" on ISIS's website. ISIS admits that these merchants are really from a Mastercard database of those that accept Mastercard PayPass payments.

I wonder how ISIS limits this program to Austin and Salt Lake City. I'm guessing the payment systems have the ability to limit the area. I wonder how big "Salt Lake City" is on their map. Per the ISIS website it looks to be the entire valley area, all the way 50 minutes north to Provo. I wonder if perhaps it might be that the secure SIMs are only being given out in these areas but the phones will actually work anyway. Oh.... I'm wonder if that is really the case!

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
I'm almost positive that's the case. You can only sign up for ISIS in-store in Austin and Salt Lake City. Use it wherever you want at least in the US. I know I *cannot* use Google Wallet in Canada, it gets declined.

Just today at Home Depot I had a VERY curious cashier wondering what I did when I paid with Google Wallet. Even contactless cards are something almost never seen (even most of the few people with them, swipe them). MasterCard made a HUGE contactless push in London for the Olympics. And remember, contactless is a bigger convenience deal there because contact EMV is slightly more difficult than swiping. Of the transactions during the Olympics that COULD be contactless (contactless card and terminal), only 15% WERE.

Austin is a young, tech-centric city. The type of people in Austin are probably far more likely than the average American to want and use this. They're also probably better able to use it without their hands being held - or merchants knowing what it is. As for Salt Lake City, I have no clue why it's a test market. LOL.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
said by meowmeow:

As for Salt Lake City, I have no clue why it's a test market. LOL.

Same reason... and I understand people may not realize this. SLC attracts a _lot_ of businesses here for many different reasons... it's cheap, large employee pool that speak different languages, and SLC grew a lot of tech from the dot com era. You have most young people going out on 2 year missions all over the world so they have that experience. In the dot com era many businesses moved to SLC as it was cheaper than CA. So SLC built up the infrastructure (heck, even the NSA likes SLC ).

meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
@tcope, it's been awhile but I've learned a bit more about this system. Due to the inability of most merchant acquirers to handle EMV at this time, the contactless payment cards in use today actually all (including these mobile wallets for their virtual card) contain a copy of magnetic stripe data to use. Yes, completely insecure magnetic stripe data. Contactless never used to scare me, on the logic that if it was intercepted, you basically got one transaction out of it. Still semi-true because it actually uses a temporary verification code instead of the real one. But you can get a real account number and expiry date from skimming these cards (obviously the mobile wallet is much harder). That's scary. Thank goodness for zero fraud liability in the US - but I sure wouldn't want to use a PayPass/PayWave card in another country...