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AndrewW

join:2009-03-07
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

[Newsgroups] Dutch Usenet services are doomed

Looks like BREIN has won another landmark case in the Netherlands where the web hosting service XS Networks has been found liable for damages resulting from them hosting the SumoTorrent website. The court determined that XS Networks had facilitated copyright infringement by hosting SumoTorrent who had already long abandoned the Netherlands and moved on to a much more tolerant Ukraine. It would appear that any Dutch Usenet provider is now really going to be useless. I wonder if there are any Usenet providers in the Ukraine?

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
This case was against a torrent site and the provider not complying with a court order. How is Usenet doomed in the NL again? People said the same thing when NSE got ruled against.

AndrewW

join:2009-03-07
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
said by sandman_1:

This case was against a torrent site and the provider not complying with a court order. How is Usenet doomed in the NL again? People said the same thing when NSE got ruled against.

You ask, “How is Usenet doomed in the NL again?” How about not being able to have files on your server that may be infringing of someone's copyright. Prime example is Astraweb that has been totally useless of late and with the implementation of automated takedowns, will be even more useless. (Even more egregious is their filling of nzb requests with filler material giving the appearance of a successfully completed download in Sabnzbd but being anything but complete in reality.) As a result of this policy change, many Astraweb customers appear to be abandoning their service or are searching for something more reliable.

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
Yea but the Dutch NSPs, have always removed copyrighted material when requested to do so just like DMCA take down requests here in the US.

Anyway if it gets so bad that companies like NSPs can't function in the Netherlands, then they will just go somewhere else more favorable to their business. I don't think Usenet will die off but adjust to the times.

AndrewW

join:2009-03-07
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
Astraweb was pretty good at ignoring or delaying BREIN takedown requests in the past but that is no longer the case.

I'm glad to see that you're beginning to see the light and acknowledge that Usenet hosting may not be possible in the future in the Netherlands. I think it is inevitable given that BREIN boasts about having taken down over 600 infringing sites and with this latest decision will only be emboldened to go after any remaining, hence NL Usenet is doomed unless you're interested in downloading filler ala Astraweb.

I think you're right that Usenet hosting servers will try to move elsewhere but the problem with that is the clash between the lack of cheap connectivity elsewhere and Usenet users' expectations of high service quality and cheap prices.

Another thing hurting Usenet is torrents. I have easily filled a few of my Usenet requests that were no longer available using torrents and rather surprisingly they were able to saturate my line at over 3MB/s. In some cases that weren't even that many seeders. Users' internet speeds have really gone up of late and it really shows in the torrent speeds.

samphar

join:2012-02-15
Alpharetta, GA
said by AndrewW:

A

I think you're right that Usenet hosting servers will try to move elsewhere but the problem with that is the clash between the lack of cheap connectivity elsewhere and Usenet users' expectations of high service quality and cheap prices.

I agree. The days of us maxing out 100mb lines may be numbered if News Service Providers move to countries with weak copyright laws.

Another thing hurting Usenet is torrents. I have easily filled a few of my Usenet requests that were no longer available using torrents and rather surprisingly they were able to saturate my line at over 3MB/s.

Torrents don't hurt usenet since the two services attract slightly different users. You have to pay for usenet unless you are one of the lucky few that have an ISP that provides decent usenet access.. That is one reason the usenet user base tends to be older than the torrent user base. Usenet provides more privacy than having your ip address publicly available for downloading a torrent.
It is true that there is a lot of content on torrents sites not available on usenet but because of it privacy usenet will always have strong appeal for adults downloading adult material. Adult companies like Suze randall and ALS Scan have gone after USenet in the past but so far none of the major porn companies have filed dmca takesdown. If adult started an aggressive DMCA campaign , then I think usenet days in Holland and the US would be numbered.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to AndrewW
Usenet services are not doomed. Only services offering up infringing content are doomed. I've been using three free services over the last year, or so. There is more to the Usenet than binary files; and there are many binary newsgroups which don't carry infringing content.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
Usenet is built off the binaries. If it weren't for the binaries, it would of been dead ages ago. How do I know? Terabytes are uploaded daily in binaries groups.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by sandman_1:

Usenet is built off the binaries. If it weren't for the binaries, it would of been dead ages ago. How do I know? Terabytes are uploaded daily in binaries groups.

Terabytes machts nichts. Usenet began before binaries, and will survive without distribution of infringing works.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Rojo

join:2009-04-14
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to AndrewW
Judgmental posts add nothing.

edit: replying to Norman.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
Just a simple observation of fact. The Usenet serves other purposes than distribution of media content. Legal action by IP owners will not be the end of the Usenet.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
You talk about "facts" Normans but seem to ignore them. Just saying...

AndrewW

join:2009-03-07
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
reply to samphar
said by samphar:

Torrents don't hurt usenet since the two services attract slightly different users. You have to pay for usenet unless you are one of the lucky few that have an ISP that provides decent usenet access.. That is one reason the usenet user base tends to be older than the torrent user base. Usenet provides more privacy than having your ip address publicly available for downloading a torrent.
It is true that there is a lot of content on torrents sites not available on usenet but because of it privacy usenet will always have strong appeal for adults downloading adult material. Adult companies like Suze randall and ALS Scan have gone after USenet in the past but so far none of the major porn companies have filed dmca takesdown. If adult started an aggressive DMCA campaign , then I think usenet days in Holland and the US would be numbered.

I didn't realize that Usenet's backbone consisted of porn customers. If that's the case and the porn industry is leaving websites that infringe their material alone, then perhaps I spoke too soon. But I find it hard to believe that they won't go after infringing sites given some of their statements to the press as to how badly their industry has been hurt by copyright infringement.

As for torrent anonymity, I believe people are turning to non-logging vpn services to address that issue. Turning to vpns tends to address the geo-ip restrictions that many sites have thus killing two birds with one stone. At any rate, as I am using torrents much more frequently the value of Usenet for me invariably diminishes with time and at some point goes away totally from sheer frustration dealing with incompletes.

AndrewW

join:2009-03-07
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

Usenet services are not doomed. Only services offering up infringing content are doomed. I've been using three free services over the last year, or so. There is more to the Usenet than binary files; and there are many binary newsgroups which don't carry infringing content.

You offer up the availability of “free services” as proof that Usenet will go on forever. The “free services” that I am aware of are backed by commercial services. If the commercial service goes away, you can kiss your free services goodbye as well.

If you were to remove all infringing content from Usenet, then all commercial NSPs are doomed. I know of no one, apart from you, interested in solely downloading “Linux distros” and since you're only interested in “free services”, how is a commercial service going to retain its paying customers?


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by AndrewW:

You offer up the availability of “free services” as proof that Usenet will go on forever. The “free services” that I am aware of are backed by commercial services. If the commercial service goes away, you can kiss your free services goodbye as well.

Eternal September and AIOE are backed by commercial services? News to me.

If you were to remove all infringing content from Usenet, then all commercial NSPs are doomed.

Probably true.

I know of no one, apart from you, interested in solely downloading “Linux distros”

Eh? I thought we were discussing the Usenet, not BitTorrent. Linux has nothing to do with it. There are photo hobbyist groups, art hobbyist groups, even stationery groups, which work with binaries.

... and since you're only interested in “free services”, how is a commercial service going to retain its paying customers?

I suppose they could pay the license fees for distribution of copyrighted works.

Basically, while the Usenet you know may be doomed, the Usenet I know will survive.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


mmainprize

join:2001-12-06
Houghton Lake, MI
Reviews:
·Charter
said by NormanS:

said by AndrewW:

You offer up the availability of “free services” as proof that Usenet will go on forever. The “free services” that I am aware of are backed by commercial services. If the commercial service goes away, you can kiss your free services goodbye as well.

Eternal September and AIOE are backed by commercial services? News to me.

If you were to remove all infringing content from Usenet, then all commercial NSPs are doomed.

Probably true.

I know of no one, apart from you, interested in solely downloading “Linux distros”

Eh? I thought we were discussing the Usenet, not BitTorrent. Linux has nothing to do with it. There are photo hobbyist groups, art hobbyist groups, even stationery groups, which work with binaries.

... and since you're only interested in “free services”, how is a commercial service going to retain its paying customers?

I suppose they could pay the license fees for distribution of copyrighted works.

Basically, while the Usenet you know may be doomed, the Usenet I know will survive.

Usenet was started before bulletin boards and was for text only. Then we got the web and bulletin boards so usenet only keep going because of the binary groups and file sharing.

Now the web has come a long way and today most people use forums to talk about things, but since usenet text groups still exist and go back many years worth of data they are still being used today by a small number of fokes.

As was stated above, most usenet users and traffic are for the binary groups and file sharing. If that part of the usenet goes down so will all the NSP's because there will not be enough people willing to pay for usenet to support even one NSP to keep going.

If any free NSP are up today and are not also commercial then they only carry a very small number of the groups that are not the popular ones that have high traffic.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Whatever ...

AndrewW

join:2009-03-07
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

Eternal September and AIOE are backed by commercial services? News to me.

Looking at Eternal September, it provides free access for text-only newsgroups via a single server with a 100mb/s line. It apparently survives by donations. Even here your contention of lasting forever is questionable given that Eternal September has lost nearly 8% of its registered users in the last 8 months. At that rate it won't be around for long.

As for Aioe.org it appears to be another text-only public news server. While it disparages many other free services and explains at length why the others are not really “free” it doesn't mention how it itself is funded. Nonetheless, the quality of its service appears to be poor given its own description of a public news server, “They are last resort sites designed for those who aren’t able to adopt a better solution : they’re usually much slower than commercial ones, binary groups are not carried in order to save bandwidth and their availability isn’t excellent. People who can choose probably should use other hosts.” Not exactly a ringing endorsement is it? It certainly doesn’t sound like a basis for eternal success and your Usenet appears to be on shaky ground as well.

BTW, when I spoke of “linux distros” apparently you missed the reference entirely. I was using “linux distros” facetiously as a common euphemism for non-infringing material which would include the uses you cited.

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

Whatever ...

Good attitude


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to AndrewW
I don't use the Usenet for downloading media files; I use Crunchy Roll, Hulu, and Vudu for streaming.

Just wondering why I should pay to download, knowing that the IP owners won't get a penny of the money I spend to watch their shows after a Usenet download.

FWIW, I used to pirate anime. But I now have licensed copies of shows in that library: Gunslinger Girls, Girls Bravo, Ultramanics, Clannad, Air ... and more. Not by force, but by desire to support those companies bringing anime to the USA.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


TOPDAWG
Premium
join:2005-04-27
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
it's simple I use Usenet to download a movie or tv show and if i like it I'll buy it later.

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

Just wondering why I should pay to download, knowing that the IP owners won't get a penny of the money I spend to watch their shows after a Usenet download.

I think if they got rid of the pay-walls then people would buy their content. Some people who have pulled-the-plug on cable so to speak, can't view a lot of the shows they may like on the outlets you gave. Most online access is blocked to those without a existing cable subscription and even an Internet subscription with a ISP that has a contract with the content company.

It is the Content and Cable companies purposely placing these restrictions in place to save their out-dated business model in the age of the Internet. Content companies have gone even further to hindering legit access to content by placing restrictions on Netflix and Redbox such as making them wait up to 56 days to get some DVD releases. Also Cable companies act in kind by implementing data caps knowing full well that this will stifle adoption of streamed content over the Internet, which is a threat to their overpriced streaming version.

I just can't feel sorry for companies that act so uncompetitively.


mmainprize

join:2001-12-06
Houghton Lake, MI
Reviews:
·Charter
said by sandman_1:

said by NormanS:

Just wondering why I should pay to download, knowing that the IP owners won't get a penny of the money I spend to watch their shows after a Usenet download.

I think if they got rid of the pay-walls then people would buy their content. Some people who have pulled-the-plug on cable so to speak, can't view a lot of the shows they may like on the outlets you gave. Most online access is blocked to those without a existing cable subscription and even an Internet subscription with a ISP that has a contract with the content company.

It is the Content and Cable companies purposely placing these restrictions in place to save their out-dated business model in the age of the Internet. Content companies have gone even further to hindering legit access to content by placing restrictions on Netflix and Redbox such as making them wait up to 56 days to get some DVD releases. Also Cable companies act in kind by implementing data caps knowing full well that this will stifle adoption of streamed content over the Internet, which is a threat to their overpriced streaming version.

I just can't feel sorry for companies that act so uncompetitively.

You have hit the nail on the head. I could not agree more.

This year it is the worst it has been. the shows i like are all on at the same time on the same day on 3 different channels. I have to chose what show i watch, what show i DVR and the other one i have to watch on demand. I can only watch the DVR show on that box/TV, same with ondemand.
One of the shows is not on "on demand" so that one has to be DVR'ed. When i do watch on demand, it has fast forward blocked and i must watch the ads that are in most cases not current as it will keep telling me to watch the next show coming on next. If i watch half of the show i must watch it again on demand. The popular shows are now, 27 minutes of show, and 33 minutes ads.

It is for reasons like these that many people will just download the shows they like, and they have no ads, they can be watched on any TV/device at any time i like. If i have to pay for TV channels, why do the channels have to have ads?.
Once i can do that with the cable system or the internet then the downloading will stop.

Rojo

join:2009-04-14
New York, NY
kudos:1
When cable first came out, to compete with over-the-air broadcasting, it was called "Pay-TV" and its big selling point was "No ads!!"

Look at it now...


mmainprize

join:2001-12-06
Houghton Lake, MI
Reviews:
·Charter
said by Rojo:

When cable first came out, to compete with over-the-air broadcasting, it was called "Pay-TV" and its big selling point was "No ads!!"

Look at it now...

Yes it is a mess.
We seem to be off topic, but i can't help myself.
I remember on the weekends i use to get up and watch cartoons and the 3 stooges until lunch when i was a kid.

Now on the weekends i can't find anything good to watch before lunch (Even with 200 channels) and most things are paid ads that are one hour long one after another, channel after channel. Same thing in the late hour at night.

The cable system forces these high number of channels on us and that is what has increased the cost for the basic, or higher packages. Most of these channels would not be able to stay on the air if it was not forced on us by the cable company packages. I like many others, only really watch about 20 to 25 of the channels, and the other 150 or so i don't really need.

The system is set up to make you pay for hundreds of channels you don't watch or need, and the cable company fights tooth and nail to keep it that way.

newster

join:2011-09-26

1 edit
And to make matters worse, the quality of cable TV programming has declined significantly since the late 1990s. Virtually all the subject-type channels that started out with a narrow focus have completely abandoned the concept. The non-fiction stations have either shut down (like TechTV) or descended into trashy "reality" shows like TLC (they don't dare call it The Learning Channel anymore). Even CNN, once a respected news organization, dove into the tabloid field of celebrity gossip and child murders.

I'd really hate to imagine what American cable TV programming might be like 10 or 20 years from now. (Idiocracy could be a lot closer than we think) Hopefully by that time everything will be available online, legally, and we won't be called pirates anymore for wanting to watch something that's not available where we live.