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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

Re: [Rant] Windows 8 advertising blitz

Well, yes, it's definitely there. It doesn't make much sense, but it is correct.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Guspaz

On Start Screen, right click anywhere along the bottom of the screen and click the all apps button to see all installed apps. Win7 has no similar display for a single click view of all apps.

Part of learning is discovering on your own, and being smart enough to search for what you need to know online or elsewhere, instead of giving up. It was done with Windows 95 when the interface completely changed, it was done with Office 2007 and later when many commands were moved with the ribbon interface, and it will be done with Windows 8. In fact, it'll take less than 15 minutes to learn basic navigation.

I hope you don't have this attitude where you work, because lifelong learning is a fact of life now.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

said by digitalfutur:

On Start Screen, right click anywhere along the bottom of the screen and click the all apps button to see all installed apps. Win7 has no similar display for a single click view of all apps.

Part of learning is discovering on your own, and being smart enough to search for what you need to know online or elsewhere, instead of giving up. It was done with Windows 95 when the interface completely changed, it was done with Office 2007 and later when many commands were moved with the ribbon interface, and it will be done with Windows 8. In fact, it'll take less than 15 minutes to learn basic navigation.

I hope you don't have this attitude where you work, because lifelong learning is a fact of life now.

That's great, if the interface saved me some time at actually doing something. Windows 95 saved everyone time doing anything because we weren't held down to Program Manager anymore and other various fuckery of a DOS+Windows shell environment.

With Windows 8 on my run-of-the-mill laptop, it takes longer to do just about anything system-related. I don't use anything in Metro, skip right past the Start screen if it comes up when I log in. The only good thing is the improved performance and the ribbon on the Explorer interface. The rest of it, down to the craptastic removal of Aero Glass, can die in a fire.

Apple isn't dumb enough to put a tablet OS on a workstation.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to digitalfutur

You're preaching to someone who is one of our resident techies, so I'm not sure what your point is. I happen to agree with him about the crap interface in Win 8, and for that matter, a lot of Win 7 was razzle-dazzle crap that was a step down from XP. And I would say the same about the "ribbon" in Office 2007. If you have to take the time to re-learn an interface for no apparent reason and no apparent benefit, then that's the definition of bad design and useless product.

Microsoft keeps coming out with useless eye candy and arbitrary changes reminiscent of tailfins on 1950's Detroit automotive behemoths, some of the ugliest and most ill-conceived cars ever made, and the fanbois just keep eating it up. Some of us just want a stable OS and stable apps with good usability that does what we need. The pinnacle of Microsoft's OS achievement in terms of shipping product IMHO was XP, and the pinnacle of their internal achievement were some of the alpha versions of Longhorn aka Vista that were basically functional extensions of XP, before they added all the bloat, bugs, and useless fins. It just reinforces the fact that Microsoft is a marketing company, not a technology company.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan



shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

I bought the $40 upgrade yesterday.

Well at least you let us know Win8 is not worth 5$.


creed3020
Premium
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Guspaz

Thanks for much for mentioning Stardock. I didn't know about this application and now that I've seen it I might actually consider Win8. I'd really like to take advantage of the new startup/shutdown speeds, task manager, storage spaces, client side hyper-v, new file explorer, etc.

I loved your story about having a friend try to shutdown your PC. It made me laugh so hard because I had the exact same experience when I tried out Developer Preview months ago. I was going WTF!@!@!@!@! the whole time and getting livid with MS at making something you do everyday so hard! I just made a shutdown.exe shortcut and said screw you Metro. I parents would never have done that or figured out how to turn the computer on. I guess they would just leave it on forever lol.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

I hope you don't have this attitude where you work, because lifelong learning is a fact of life now.

Is this part of Microsoft's new campaign for Windows 8? "Windows 8 - it's so good, that if you don't like it there's something wrong with you!"



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by Walter Dnes:

But you're perfectly OK with a thousand spreadsheets/etc pinned on your task bar.

Pinned to the context menu that appears when you right click on the one single Excel icon that's on the taskbar, you mean. There are no "thousands" of spreadsheets on the taskbar itself.

I don't think he understands what we're referring to. We probably should have known better when a Linux user was trying to tell us how we should do something...


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

True enough.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

I hope you don't have this attitude where you work, because lifelong learning is a fact of life now.

Not exactly. Windows 8 will be completely skipped in the enterprise, just as Vista was, so this attitude is completely inline with the IT standards of where many people work.

After a transition from Windows XP to Windows 7 and the necessary retraining of people to go to Windows 8, I expect we'll see Windows 7 in work environments for a good 5 - 6 years. It doesn't help we have articles like Zdnet's "Enterprise sends Windows 8 to the grave before launch".

Riamen
Premium
join:2002-11-04
Calgary

1 recommendation

reply to elwoodblues

I've been using Windows 8 Pro on my work laptop for about a month now. I don't have any real issues getting around on it and I appreciate some of its nice features like the quick boot and shutdown but the interface is too schizophrenic. Metro is so pointless on a non-touch screen device.

Fortunately you can ignore most of Metro, after logging on 'signing on' I click the desktop tile and basically stay there for the day. Just about everything I need is pinned to the taskbar.



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

It's 100% about enterprise adoption. That's where the money is, not consumers, when they see near zero Win8 adoption there we'll quickly see Win 9 errr... Win 8 R2



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

You're preaching to someone who is one of our resident techies, so I'm not sure what your point is. I happen to agree with him about the crap interface in Win 8, and for that matter, a lot of Win 7 was razzle-dazzle crap that was a step down from XP. And I would say the same about the "ribbon" in Office 2007. If you have to take the time to re-learn an interface for no apparent reason and no apparent benefit, then that's the definition of bad design and useless product.

Microsoft keeps coming out with useless eye candy and arbitrary changes reminiscent of tailfins on 1950's Detroit automotive behemoths, some of the ugliest and most ill-conceived cars ever made, and the fanbois just keep eating it up. Some of us just want a stable OS and stable apps with good usability that does what we need. The pinnacle of Microsoft's OS achievement in terms of shipping product IMHO was XP, and the pinnacle of their internal achievement were some of the alpha versions of Longhorn aka Vista that were basically functional extensions of XP, before they added all the bloat, bugs, and useless fins. It just reinforces the fact that Microsoft is a marketing company, not a technology company.

my next computer will likely be a Mac...partly because i want to try one, partly because i know have several Apple products that look like they would work together well, and party for your reasons above.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

You can just stand in Best Buy and try one... I'd suggest doing that first, before buying one. Apple OS is perfect for a small subset of our population, possibly a handful of very vocal "this is the best!" group of people, while Windows is the right choice for the majority.

Try and show a 76 year old how to scan pictures and upload them on Facebook on both Windows PC and Apple OS and you'll be tearing your hair out after the latter...



CanadianRip

join:2009-07-15
Oakville, ON
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Not exactly. Windows 8 will be completely skipped in the enterprise, just as Vista was, so this attitude is completely inline with the IT standards of where many people work.

After a transition from Windows XP to Windows 7 and the necessary retraining of people to go to Windows 8, I expect we'll see Windows 7 in work environments for a good 5 - 6 years. It doesn't help we have articles like Zdnet's "Enterprise sends Windows 8 to the grave before launch".

Well not exactly - the Enterprise wanted a tablet they could manage policy on. This is what they get.

They really simply should come out and say it's not meant for the desktop, however it supports the desktop in a legacy mode. Then instead of seeming like a full blown failure on the desktop; it would have been a marketing victory.


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to elwoodblues

Remember the Windows 7 Launch party video - produced by Microsoft?

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cX4t5-YpHQ


Remember how lame that was?

Micro$haft is still lame enough to do the same thing for Windoze 8. It's only a matter of time.

I'm still running Win-98se (with KernelEx) on 3.5 ghz PentiumD with 1 gb ram and 1.5 tb sata hard drive - because I know that the emperor has no clothes.

The Windoze NT line of operating systems: Made from the finest, most expensive code.

Microsoft's motto: If it works, it's not complicated enough.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to CanadianRip

said by CanadianRip:

Well not exactly - the Enterprise wanted a tablet they could manage policy on. This is what they get.

... well, no, not even a little bit. Windows RT is residential-oriented and can't be joined to domains which means it can't be managed with policies and the Office for it has purposely excluded Outlook.

Perhaps Surface 2 will be targeted at the enterprise but you're a little off the mark for today.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Last Parade

Apple has 7% market share for their OS so the market has already passed judgement on its value. Their strength is mobile computing, both tablet and phone, where the user experience is very similar between both, as it should be.

Since mobile devices are here to stay, it makes sense to a have 3 way integration where MS has a dominant desktop presence, if they want to have the same in tablets and mobile.

--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Wolfie00

Since Windows 7 has sold 500 million licences, you're in the tiny minority of those who don't like it, the market has passed you by.

Re-learning is part of life, so if your avoidance of that lies with Windows XP and Office 2003, that's your prerogative.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Apple has 7% market share for their OS so the market has already passed judgement on its value.

Yes, it now has twice as much market share as it did a very short time ago, and is the highest it's ever been since the early-90s.

For what it's worth, the market hasn't passed judgement on it's value. It's passed judgement on its price.

Just sayin.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to urbanriot

The primary consideration for enterprises is cost and compatibility with existing corporate software, customized or off the shelf. Vista had additional hardware requirements compared with XP that Win 7 and Win 8 don't, so there was little appetite for upgrading both with Vista.

In any case, no business is going to upgrade to a new OS when the existing one is not near the end of its lifecycle. That's a function if timing, not the suitability of the OS.

--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to digitalfutur

> Since Windows 7 has sold 500 million licences, you're in the
> tiny minority of those who don't like it, the market has passed
> you by.

You forget that Milkrosoft controls the availability of it's own operating systems.

You want to buy a new PC or laptop? You get what-ever Meekrosoft wants it to come with from the factory.

Show me any PC or laptop that comes without an OS at the retail level. Show me how I can still legally obtain any previous version of Windoze for the machine of my choice. Then you can tell me how all those 500 million copies were "chosen" by the people now using them.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Vista had additional hardware requirements compared with XP that Win 7 and Win 8 don't, so there was little appetite for upgrading both with Vista.

There is a reason why Dell and other OEMs continued to offer their corporate machines with Windows Vista licenses with downgrade rights exercised and XP preinstalled on the machine for literally years after Vista had been released, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the brand new hardware that was being purchased being incapable of running Vista.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

The primary consideration for enterprises is cost and compatibility with existing corporate software, customized or off the shelf.

I would say that's wrong and the primary consideration is for a homogeneous environment and how it's tied into training, procedures and policies and corporate administration. This includes what you wrote as well, but a homogeneous, never changing environment is the over-encompassing umbrella.

It's all tied in together and as soon as you change one minor element in that mix, all sorts of documentation needs to be updated.

Users want to do something, local management says no. Users push harder the next year, local administration pushes, local management says no. Users push harder the next year, local administration pushes management, management asks corporate IT, corporate IT says no. Everyone gives up. Two years later, Windows 8 is on the horizon and corporate IT says, "We're upgrading to Windows 7!" Celebrations and sighs of annoyance ensue.

I'm not sure if you've ever been involved in global IT or IS but I can tell you that it moves at a snails pace entirely because of that, especially when Europe is involved. I would go a step beyond that to the point that Europeans are scared of anything new and anything 'new' we were using two years ago.

What Gone wrote was true as well as it falls under the same umbrella, most sites had corporate XP images or OPK distributions they'd deploy over whatever the OEM installed.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

So, Windows 8 died today... I spent many hours trying to repair the damned thing.

tl;dr: installing the Media Center upgrade caused the system to bluescreen every boot, and system restore failed because Windows 8 disables system restore on all drives when upgrading from Windows 7. Safe mode worked at first, but ultimately stopped working, and a "refresh" was required, which does a semi-fresh reinstall, keeping your documents and desktop image, but removing all your applications and settings.

So, this morning, I was home sick, and planned to do a bit of work from home to avoid having to spend too much time catching up later in the week. Right after sitting down, I noticed that my free key for the Media Center upgrade had arrived (Microsoft likes taking their time to do things with Windows 8, like how it takes ONE FULL MONTH to change the e-mail address of your login account. Yes, really, it says it will take effect November 26th). I activated it, not thinking much of it, and then... the computer rebooted. Without warning. It finished installing the components and then immediately initiated a soft reboot, killing my 15 hour 7zip task 80% of the way through...

Oh well, idiotic design on Microsoft's part, but not a big deal. Except, the computer wouldn't start up. Bluescreen. Reboot. Bluescreen. Reboot. Automated repair. Five minute wait while it tries and fails to fix the problem its own (it does this EVERY TIME, and there is no other way to get into this menu except waiting the five minutes EVERY TIME). Dumped into troubleshooting menu...

Then begins hours and hours of trying all sorts of different things to resolve it. I tried to enable boot logging to see what was failing, but boot logging doesn't actually log the boot if it doesn't finish booting, it seems. Tried to boot into safe mode to examine the memory dumps, they seemed to indicate it was some DVD-related thing from Roxio that I had never installed, so probably that came from the Media Center thing I had just installed. Eventually, safe mode with networking also started bluescreening every time, leaving me stuck with non-networking safemode. At this point, I tried to use system restore to rollback the change. I would live without media center, then.

SORRY! NOPE! YOU HAVE NO RESTORE POINTS!

This, of course, confused me, because I had specifically verified that system restore was enabled just a few days ago in Win7 (I had wanted to check how much space it was set to use on my drives), so I know it was enabled. I booted into non-networked safe mode and verified that the system restore folders indeed had gigabytes of data in them, but Windows insisted there were no restore points.

Tried to open the system restore settings, only to be told that I wasn't allowed to access it because it was only available in an "online operating system"... WTF. At this point, the system stopped booting into even regular safe mode, nothing but bluescreens.

I had to give up and use the "refresh" option. It's basically a complete fresh re-install (but done from the system itself without any install media), it erases all your settings, removes all of your installed apps, and basically leaves you with a completely fresh Win8 install...

Want to know what I found right after I booted up? Well, other than the fact that the Media Center app was now present and working, System Restore was disabled on both drives. The gigabytes of data in the folders? Win7 restore points, not Win8 restore points. The Windows 8 installer disables system restore, for some reason, and leaves the useless Win7 data there.

I re-enabled it (and had it remove the existing data), so I guess I'm covered for the future, but what kind of idiot at Microsoft thought this was a good idea? To DISABLE SYSTEM RESTORE WHEN THE USER UPGRADES TO WINDOWS 8?!?!

I spent most of the rest of today re-installing and re-configuring all my apps...

I guess I should give props to the new "refresh" option working exactly as designed (and "fixing" my problem), but none of this would have been required if they hadn't sabotaged my computer by disabling system restore.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8

Wow, that's really unfortunate, even my pessimistic approach to new OS's from Microsoft wouldn't have predicted that bad of an experience!

I have to say that System Restore has some weak points in Windows 7 as well. Restore points seem to disappear under a variety of special circumstances, though not consistently -- such as when a system has been restored from a backup. I also had several days of frustration after installing it on a laptop that had originally come with XP. Any and all restore points would simply disappear after every reboot! There was a cryptic event log entry related to Volume Shadow Service but no other clue. It finally turned out that the fix was to disable system hibernation. How and why that had anything to do with it is still unclear.

Haven't had any problems in XP. And you're right, what an incredibly stupid option, to disable System Restore by default, and not even tell the user!!!!!!!!!!
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to urbanriot

I work at GE and was one of the last to get an XP image pre-installed in summer 2009 on my laptop. Windows 7 deployment began at GE the following summer, just before downgrade rights ended for good in October 2010. 3½ years after Vista launched. I finally got Windows 7 last month.

With over 300,000 seats, deployment isn't done in a few months, it's still not complete. Every user gets the same image as mandated by Corporate HQ IT, then each division customizes the image for their own business, GE Capital in my case.

The same thing happened when Windows XP was deployed to succeed Windows 2000. That didn't happen when Windows XP shipped, it took several years as the 3-5 year leases expired and PCs and laptops replaced.

The point is, as I posted earlier, that whether a company deploys a new OS is influenced much more by the timing (and thus replacement cost) of the existing hardware and software than it is by the OS itself. So it's far too early to write off Windows 8 because companies aren't rushing to deploy...they don't need to for now. It took years for XP to become the corporate standard.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



capdjq
Premium
join:2000-11-01
Vancouver

I've never upgraded before from one OS to another. However, I cannot find my Windows 7 Ultimate disc and I want (actually have to reinstall). Rather than purchase another Windows 7 might as well go Windows 8. Would I need my Windows 7 disc to upgrade? Thanks



FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

said by capdjq:

I've never upgraded before from one OS to another. However, I cannot find my Windows 7 Ultimate disc and I want (actually have to reinstall). Rather than purchase another Windows 7 might as well go Windows 8. Would I need my Windows 7 disc to upgrade? Thanks

I didn't
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat···onalism/


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Apple has 7% market share for their OS so the market has already passed judgement on its value.

That doesn't show the entire story, yes they have a 7% marketshare, but there is only one maker of "Macs and Mac OS". Microsoft has everyone and their mother selling a variant of Windows. not to mention how many system builders are out there?
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......