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Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium Member
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Blackbird to armed

Premium Member

to armed

Re: San Fransisco police getting drones

said by armed:

...
IT IS NOT THE TOOLS USED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT THE ABUSE BY THOSE WHO USE THEM AND THE INCORRECT APPLICATION OF THE LAWS GOVERNING THEIR USE THAT IS THE THREAT.
...

And maybe that's where the crux of the matter really lies. Some folks might argue that if law enforcement is denied certain tools, then there will be less (or no) chance of incorrectly applying the laws governing their use. Put another way, the power of certain tools when abused may threaten to be so great that it arguably isn't worth the risk to society and personal freedom for them to be applied domestically in the first place. A number of issues fall into this category, ranging from national ID cards all the way to domestic LE use of drones... and a reasonable debate can certainly be framed by both sides on that kind of basis.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy

Premium Member

said by Blackbird:

said by armed:

...
IT IS NOT THE TOOLS USED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT THE ABUSE BY THOSE WHO USE THEM AND THE INCORRECT APPLICATION OF THE LAWS GOVERNING THEIR USE THAT IS THE THREAT.
...

And maybe that's where the crux of the matter really lies. Some folks might argue that if law enforcement is denied certain tools, then there will be less (or no) chance of incorrectly applying the laws governing their use. Put another way, the power of certain tools when abused may threaten to be so great that it arguably isn't worth the risk to society and personal freedom for them to be applied domestically in the first place. A number of issues fall into this category, ranging from national ID cards all the way to domestic LE use of drones... and a reasonable debate can certainly be framed by both sides on that kind of basis.

Considering the amount of respect I have for both of you, it's unsettling to have to disagree with both of you.
The issue is not about abuse or even potential for abuse.
Abuse of power, which is what seems to have taken center stage, has been around since the first laws were put in place.
Those are situational items that will happen as a matter of course.

It's about the law itself which is the final arbiter of what is acceptable use vs what is unacceptable use.

"How far can the legal, lawful use of technology go" before it becomes oppressive to the average citizen?
That's the issue, IMO
armed
join:2000-10-20

armed

Member

said by Snowy:

said by Blackbird:

said by armed:

...
IT IS NOT THE TOOLS USED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT THE ABUSE BY THOSE WHO USE THEM AND THE INCORRECT APPLICATION OF THE LAWS GOVERNING THEIR USE THAT IS THE THREAT.
...

And maybe that's where the crux of the matter really lies. Some folks might argue that if law enforcement is denied certain tools, then there will be less (or no) chance of incorrectly applying the laws governing their use. Put another way, the power of certain tools when abused may threaten to be so great that it arguably isn't worth the risk to society and personal freedom for them to be applied domestically in the first place. A number of issues fall into this category, ranging from national ID cards all the way to domestic LE use of drones... and a reasonable debate can certainly be framed by both sides on that kind of basis.

Considering the amount of respect I have for both of you, it's unsettling to have to disagree with both of you.
The issue is not about abuse or even potential for abuse.
Abuse of power, which is what seems to have taken center stage, has been around since the first laws were put in place.
Those are situational items that will happen as a matter of course.

It's about the law itself which is the final arbiter of what is acceptable use vs what is unacceptable use.

"How far can the legal, lawful use of technology go" before it becomes oppressive to the average citizen?
That's the issue, IMO

Well...you're right. That is concise and good writing and you have asked the one question that cuts to the issue.

I will leave it at that.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

1 edit

NormanS to sashwa

MVM

to sashwa
said by sashwa:

I believe that is Alameda County Sheriff Dept not SF police.

And they apparently have Tank Police in Oakland, as well. I wonder if they have a tank police officer as cool as Leona Ozaki?

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do ··· k_Police
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le ··· na_Ozaki
»i1222.photobucket.com/al ··· ghts.jpg

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

Blogger to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
San Francisco? LOL! The chances of it being implemented are about the same as the Golden Gate Bridge be repainted purple.

San Francisco? If you know the City you have to ask yourself were there really people from there that thought they could sell such a sweeping idea?

sashwa
Mod
join:2001-01-29
Alcatraz

sashwa

Mod

It's not the City. It's Alameda County which is across the Bay from the City.

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

Blogger

Premium Member

Well don't I feel like the fool! Nevertheless thanks for pointing out my error and misguided thinking. I sincerely appreciate it.

Alameda, home of Oakland v San Francisco. Uh, some differences there between the two large major metropolitan cities.

Now if we are talking Oakland toss in logistical support for the drones by Apache Longbows and Little Birds!
Blogger

Blogger

Premium Member

Well good gosh, I'm not such a big fool after all. Only an uninformed poster. I say that as I realized I keyed off the THREAD TITLE: SF POLICE GETTING DRONES


StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW to Blogger

Premium Member

to Blogger

Sarcasm detector
My meter went off the scale with that reply

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to Blogger

MVM

to Blogger
said by Blogger:

Well good gosh, I'm not such a big fool after all. Only an uninformed poster. I say that as I realized I keyed off the THREAD TITLE: SF POLICE GETTING DRONES

Some out-of-state folks see it on a San Francisco news web site and draw the wrong conclusion about coverage. Unlike, say, Denver metro, or Houston metro, the S.F. Bay Area has two urban centers with a population over 800,000, two more of at least 200,000, and a half dozen at over 100,000 apiece.

Top four cities in population:

• San José - 971,372
• San Francisco - 805,235
• Oakland - 395,817
• Fremont - 214,089

The over 100,000 cities are: Santa Rosa, Hayward, Sunnyvale, Concord, Santa Clara, Vallejo.

There are nine counties in the S.F. Bay Area. San Francisco is the only city in San Francisco County; they have the same boundary. Alameda and Santa Clara Counties have three cities apiece with population of at least 100,000.

So if it is reported on a S.F. news site, it isn't necessarily S.F. news.
armed
join:2000-10-20

armed

Member

Well even by living fairly close and going there every so often you taught me something new. I always assumed that San Francisco was easily the largest in population in that area. I would have bet money on it.

Blogger
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join:2012-10-18

Blogger to NormanS

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to NormanS
Yes, SF is geographically small for such a major city. Consequently its population has remained fairly constant for many decades. I would guess it fluctuations between 750,000 and 850,000. As I recall it has gone up and down and up. There just isn't any room to expand.

The airport is a fair piece from San Francisco.

Candlestick Park where the 49ers plays is a bit of a trip from San Francisco. They are moving roughly 50 or 60 miles to a new stadium in the Santa Clara/San Jose area soon.

At least the SF Giants ballpark is in the city but then it naturally had to abut the waterline. No where else to put it in the City.

Actually the City's relative small size along with its many wonderful features makes it one of the nicest cities in the world, especially if you are not overly concerned with lots of locl government involvement with your life, (what you can and cannot do), and you're financially well off.
Expand your moderator at work
mbeckman
Premium Member
join:2004-09-06
Ventura, CA

2 recommendations

mbeckman to armed

Premium Member

to armed

Re: San Fransisco police getting drones

"Its a new tool, not anymore invasive nor dangerous to us than any other tool they have to track and arrest criminals. There is no evidence that use of a drone has anymore implications in the loss of our rights than when they fist started to use helicopters or planes..."

Armed,

You're wrong, and you could well be dead wrong. Drones are dramatically more dangerous than manned helicopters and aircraft, because drones are technically incapable of complying with current aircraft traffic separation rules. I'm an instrument rated pilot and also a licensed aerospace technician, and I can assure you that drone operators do not have the visual acuity through onboard video to "see and avoid" other aircraft in the visual flight rules (VFR) environment. "See and avoid", not radar, is the only FAA-sanctioned method for maintaining aircraft separation in VFR, which are the only rules under which drones can operate.

If a drone were to hit an airliner full of people, the results would likely be catastrophic. Perhaps you recall the Cerritos disaster in Los Angeles a few years ago? That happened despite four sets of active human observers, which are far more reliable than radar or remote video imaging.

Someday the technology may exist for safe mixing of drones and human-piloted aircraft. That day is years, if not decades, away. Until then, drones must not be permitted to share airspace with civil aviation in the US.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger

MVM

Our drones have a much bigger range of 'visual' then humans as our sensors can see things that no human eye can, toss in we have a better range of view both in terms of distance and coverage around the drone (how many mid air collisions were caused by planes colliding on the vertical (particularly around airports) as pilot vision above and below their planes is limited at best). I'm more worried about human pilots then drones anymore.

Blake
Hey for you next party, want some pyrotechnicals that are better then your neighbor's last party, no problem we are now renting MQ-9 Reapers for parties as nothing beats the pyrotechnical show of 14 hell fire missiles hitting your neighbors house. Finally Shock and Awe for the average Joe who is just trying to keep up with (and maybe eliminate) those pesky Jones.

Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium Member
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Blackbird

Premium Member

said by Link Logger:

Our drones have a much bigger range of 'visual' then humans as our sensors can see things that no human eye can, toss in we have a better range of view both in terms of distance and coverage around the drone (how many mid air collisions were caused by planes colliding on the vertical (particularly around airports) as pilot vision above and below their planes is limited at best). I'm more worried about human pilots then drones anymore. ...

Most police drones will be significantly smaller than a light airplane... which means the visual cross-section they present will be far harder for others to detect. It's much like the problem of motorcycles on roadways... most cycle-car collisions occur because a motorcycle subtends a much smaller visual angle than a car at the same distance and approach speed, and this is tremendously significant when a car driver is looking down a road for oncoming traffic before he pulls out. Too often, he simply cannot discern the changing motion angle of the cycle... that is, it appears either invisible or as a fixed object to his glances.

In piloted aircraft, this phenomenon gets magnified many-fold, since the velocities of the objects involved can typically be anywhere from 10 to 50 times greater than the scenario with automobiles and motorcycles. The ability to visually detect a moving object against a background depends on the ability to discern the changing position of that object against the relatively slow-moving background. Doing this repeatedly or continuously produces a sense of object velocity and direction. But if the object is small and moving fast, there will usually be great difficulty in picking up the object as it moves - that is, at best it will seem to pop in and out of view as it moves across various background contrasts. This robs the brain of its necessary data updates for detection and decision-making, which causes impairment of its ability to even sense movement, let alone determine direction and velocity. All of this occurs against a backdrop of potentially very high-speed closing velocities where increased detection and faster reaction is actually demanded.

Frankly, there's little concern about the low-probability case of two drones hitting each other... other than the small area affected by the debris field, it's not likely to be a big deal. But one should care a great deal if they're in a conventional aircraft (commercial or general aviation) that gets mid-air'd by a drone that was too small to see and avoid. Moreover, the pilot of a police drone is not going to be staring at 15 different, omni-directed sensors on the craft looking for airplanes - he's going to be staring at the primary down-looking sensor output that shows what ground objects are beneath and directly ahead of his flight path. These drones are not going to be equipped with effective collision-avoidance systems that somehow magically alert the operator to incoming traffic or automatically cause the drone to take effective evasive action... the former would be false-alarm prone and the loop-time too slow to be of any use, while the latter would cost far too much money to install and maintain for the drones to be economically feasible.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger

MVM

I have to disagree with you as the reason why motorcycle are involved in more accidents has to do with the speed at which they travel relative to the speed of cars, as they tend to travel faster which means they are constantly moving into and out of blind spots and hence statically spend more time in blind spots then cars. If you and me are driving cars down the freeway, typically we will travel at the same speed (likely over the posted limit), but we will setup such that we can see each other (ie you won't sit in my blind spot). Now motorbikes tend to drive faster then cars means they are passing more cars when means they are passing through more blind spots, hence the majority of the problem (one of the reasons for speed limits).

Now flying in and around major cities (and hence airports) is always fun as typically there are paths/areas you are required to avoid because of commercial air traffic and if there is a reason for police helicopters etc to be in those areas everyone and their dog gets the messages or they might even re-route air traffic as required (remember Pink Floyd's Pig and the fun it cause over Heathrow). The fun part about drones is being smaller its easier for them to operate lower if needed (or for really small drones lower is the only option), so its easier for them to avoid air traffic.

The other thing is if my drone is going down, I don't mind going vertical if it means I miss everything, ie my drone doesn't even register on the importance scale (ie I'm not trying to save it) unless of course it has ordinance onboard in which case a nice big bay is always a good place to lose the boom to (reason why the English Channel is full of all sorts of goodies).

Blake
mbeckman
Premium Member
join:2004-09-06
Ventura, CA

mbeckman to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
Link Logger,

You simply don't know what you're talking about. The sensors in drones give operators nowhere near the visual acuity and collision avoidance capability of human pilots. The idea that a drone pilot has anything approaching a panoramic view with the slew rates of human eyes is a total fantasy. You're falling for the "CSI" effect: believing science fiction represents today's technical capability.
mbeckman

mbeckman to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
"Now flying in and around major cities (and hence airports) is always fun as typically there are paths/areas you are required to avoid because of commercial air traffic and if there is a reason for police helicopters etc to be in those areas everyone and their dog gets the messages or they might even re-route air traffic as required (remember Pink Floyd's Pig and the fun it cause over Heathrow). The fun part about drones is being smaller its easier for them to operate lower if needed (or for really small drones lower is the only option), so its easier for them to avoid air traffic."

Link Logger,

I'm a helicopter pilot. We fly at 500 feet AGL, out of the flow of fixed wing traffic, which fly enroute only at 1000' AGL and above. By law. Drones will be operating at both high and low altitudes, breaking the existing physical separation between fast fixed wing and slower rotary wing aircraft. That's an unacceptable increase in risk and a recipe for catastrophe.

You should do some study about how aviation actually works before reeling off fantastical theories.

Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium Member
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Blackbird to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

I have to disagree with you as the reason why motorcycle are involved in more accidents has to do with the speed at which they travel relative to the speed of cars, as they tend to travel faster which means they are constantly moving into and out of blind spots and hence statically spend more time in blind spots then cars. If you and me are driving cars down the freeway, typically we will travel at the same speed (likely over the posted limit), but we will setup such that we can see each other (ie you won't sit in my blind spot). Now motorbikes tend to drive faster then cars means they are passing more cars when means they are passing through more blind spots, hence the majority of the problem (one of the reasons for speed limits)....

The problem is that most motorcycle-automobile accidents occur as simple failure-to-yield types (a car pulling out of a side-street, turning right-on-red, turning across traffic into a side-street/entrance, etc), where subsequently the auto driver states he "didn't see" the moving cycle that he hit. While in some cases, the cycles may have been going abnormally fast, in most cases they were not. Of the six or seven motorcycle accidents involving friends, of which I have some close personal knowledge, every one involved a car pulling onto or across the road directly in front of a legally-operated and legal-speed motorcycle. This is the key reason that (at least at one era in time and in most places) motorcycles were required to run with their headlight on: to at least increase their visual detectability. Unfortunately a single headlight, while it does increase visual detectability under low-light conditions, does little to reveal the nearness or velocity of the cycle. Those perceptions require the light source or object be physically wide enough in the visual field for the eye to discern the rate of increase in size, which is the apparent increase in separation distance between multiple lights or apparent edges of the approaching object. That necessarily requires at least two discernable headlights spaced far enough apart to resolve both at distance. A single headlight or the unilluminated edges of a small profile simply will not provide the visual information in a timely manner.

All of this becomes far more acute in an airborne setting where the closing velocities and the potential directions of approach between objects are much greater (existing in 3 dimensions instead of 2).
said by Link Logger:

Now flying in and around major cities (and hence airports) is always fun as typically there are paths/areas you are required to avoid because of commercial air traffic and if there is a reason for police helicopters etc to be in those areas everyone and their dog gets the messages or they might even re-route air traffic as required (remember Pink Floyd's Pig and the fun it cause over Heathrow). The fun part about drones is being smaller its easier for them to operate lower if needed (or for really small drones lower is the only option), so its easier for them to avoid air traffic....

The problem here is that many, if not most, aircraft don't fly in nicely marked-out corridors at set altitudes, evenly spaced out in-between. Only those under ATC and using transponders can be made to obey such restrictions, and then really only in regions of airport approach. The further problem is that most drone missions require at least part of the flight profile to be at multiple thousands of feet to view an adequate coverage area, only after broad survey lowering their altitude to multiple hundreds of feet or less if needed. The lower the drone, the greater the risk of its detection and some kind of counteraction being taken (if only destroying the "stuff"), as well as increasing the risks of it colliding with birds or being buffeted by the increased air turbulence above local landforms. Unless the drones are required at all times to operate below aircraft altitude minimums (which in most areas are far lower than you might imagine), the potential for air disaster with the increasing use of small drones will only increase until the unthinkable does, in fact, occur.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to mbeckman

MVM

to mbeckman
said by mbeckman:

"Now flying in and around major cities (and hence airports) is always fun as typically there are paths/areas you are required to avoid because of commercial air traffic and if there is a reason for police helicopters etc to be in those areas everyone and their dog gets the messages or they might even re-route air traffic as required (remember Pink Floyd's Pig and the fun it cause over Heathrow). The fun part about drones is being smaller its easier for them to operate lower if needed (or for really small drones lower is the only option), so its easier for them to avoid air traffic."

Link Logger,

I'm a helicopter pilot. We fly at 500 feet AGL, out of the flow of fixed wing traffic, which fly enroute only at 1000' AGL and above. By law. Drones will be operating at both high and low altitudes, breaking the existing physical separation between fast fixed wing and slower rotary wing aircraft. That's an unacceptable increase in risk and a recipe for catastrophe.

You should do some study about how aviation actually works before reeling off fantastical theories.

Lets say your in San Fran and you and your police helicopter get a call to check out a possible shooter in Walnut Park, but that is on the approach to San Fran International which is pretty much on the other side of the freeway, now what happens? The point I was making was in pretty much every major city there is a major airport or airports where you might not have the vertical separation needed to wander around as you please no matter what your flying. Put up a RQ-4 and who cares about commercial air traffic.

And who says that a drone has to be fixed wing, maybe they are looking at a MQ-8 as drones come in all shapes and sizes and capabilities anymore. Maybe they want to deploy a situational drone like a Wasp that the officer pulled out of the trunk of his cruiser and deployed to get an overview of a situation before the helicopter could get there.

The reality is drones are the future, and the transition has begun, for example the 138th FS switched from F16s to MQ-9 Reapers so of course anyone that uses aircraft (be it fixed or rotary wing) will be considering drones as a possible replacement.

Blake
Link Logger

Link Logger to Blackbird

MVM

to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

The problem is that most motorcycle-automobile accidents occur as simple failure-to-yield types (a car pulling out of a side-street, turning right-on-red, turning across traffic into a side-street/entrance, etc), where subsequently the auto driver states he "didn't see" the moving cycle that he hit.

Shoots to hell their argument for requiring LOUD motorbikes for safety reasons.

To pay for these drones they will likely cover then in neon billboards (think Blade Runner), so visibility shouldn't be a problem.

Blake
mbeckman
Premium Member
join:2004-09-06
Ventura, CA

mbeckman to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
Link logger,

The reality is that drones safely operating in US civil airspace are FAR in the future - a decade at least - given the state of technology. I dearly hope by then you have given at least a cursory glance at the plentiful documentation explaining how aircraft separation actually works today. You would know that your "SanFran" scenario is impossible.

Surrounding every large airport in the US, and the majority of mid-sized ones, is a complex layer cake of airspace that all aircraft require specific clearance and unique radar transponder code tracking in order to enter. In this environment, under the visual flight rules which drones must operate, many instructions are given that require visually identifying and responding to nearby aircraft. For example, a controller might instruct "Learjet N314A, traffic is a Cessna at 10 o'clock and five miles. When you pass him, enter downwind for runway 13R." This requires immediately acquiring and identifying the called traffic and responding to the controller with precise, responsive, close-in maneuvering. No drone pilot could accomplish this safely with today's camera slew rates and visibility sphere.

That you don't know this indicates you should learn the fundamentals of aviation in-flight operations before positing anything about drones working in the civilian world.  

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger

MVM

The FAA was to have picked 6 cities to host UAVs last month from a rumored list of 30 interested cities, but delayed their decision based on privacy concerns, not technology concerns.

»wnewsj.com/main.asp?Sect ··· D=202984

Interestingly there are people who think the sensors are an invasion of privacy and others who think they are inadequate for flight.

Blake

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to Blogger

MVM

to Blogger
said by Blogger:

Candlestick Park where the 49ers plays is a bit of a trip from San Francisco. They are moving roughly 50 or 60 miles to a new stadium in the Santa Clara/San Jose area soon.

Actually, it is probably closer to 40 miles between "The Stick" and the new stadium under construction in the City of Santa Clara. I wonder if they will cal the cheerleading squad, "The Clarabelles"?
OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17

OZO to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

Our drones have a much bigger range of 'visual' then humans as our sensors can see things that no human eye can...

and related:
said by Link Logger:

Interestingly there are people who think the sensors are an invasion of privacy and others who think they are inadequate for flight.

One thing is to watch a remote target from a distance (potentially violating their privacy) and another is to correctly access safety of surrounding 3D-area full with flying objects within. If it's not obvious yet, next time try to drive your car looking ahead only through x12 binoculars...
said by Link Logger:

The FAA was to have picked 6 cities to host UAVs last month from a rumored list of 30 interested cities, but delayed their decision based on privacy concerns, not technology concerns.

It's good to know that there are some people who still value privacy of others... not trying to monetize on selling snooping devices and related technologies.
said by Link Logger:

The other thing is if my drone is going down, I don't mind going vertical if it means I miss everything, ie my drone doesn't even register on the importance scale (ie I'm not trying to save it) unless of course it has ordinance onboard in which case a nice big bay is always a good place to lose the boom to (reason why the English Channel is full of all sorts of goodies).

I don't care about your ordinance (which could make things even worse) or cost of your lost equipment at all. But what if your home is right beneath? Or may be mine, or may be someone else's? I know that you, trying to sell the drones, don't care. But ask the rest of the people. Do they want to see your drone to go vertical right above their heads?

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to StuartMW

MVM

to StuartMW
quote:
Paranoid delusions about black helicopters hovering over an area will soon be out of date: The latest scary spy apparatus lives 20,000 feet up, turning 30 or more square miles into live video sharp enough to spot individual people walking around.
»www.nbcnews.com/technolo ··· C8149730

Don't under estimate how good sensor technology is getting. Now being able to scan 30 sq miles at a time, sounds like something a police department would love to have to track baddies.

Blake
Link Logger

1 recommendation

Link Logger

MVM

And now you can go to college to be a drone pilot
quote:
While most jobs flying drones currently are military-related, universities and colleges expect that to change by 2015, when the Federal Aviation Administration is due to release regulations for unmanned aircraft in domestic airspace. Once those regulations are in place, the FAA predicts that 10,000 commercial drones will be operating in the U.S. within five years.

Although just three schools currently offer degrees in piloting unmanned aircraft, many others – including community colleges – offer training for remote pilots. And those numbers figure are set to increase, with some aviation industry analysts predicting drones will eventually come to dominate the U.S. skies in terms of jobs.
»openchannel.nbcnews.com/ ··· ams?lite

Welcome to the future, or as one of our drones said to me, 'flying meat bags are endangered species'. I must admit I was concerned about the Arnie picture in its hanger with 'Traitor' written below it.

Blake
Link Logger

Link Logger

MVM

Don't leave your windows open, not even just a little bit otherwise I'm flying this into your house for a look around.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· youtu.be


This technology is getting better all the time as well as cheaper.

Blake