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frustrated27

@comcast.net

Dealer backed out - i have bill of sale - legal?

Here's the situation. I went to a small dealership and made a deal with the rep there. I gave him 2K down and gave him the info for my financing. He faxed out the purchase agreement. He doesn't have his own financing available. Its taking my lender a little bit longer than expected (its been 9 calender days since we made a deal). He just sold the car today to another buyer for more than we had agreed upon. I do have a bill of sale and receipt of payment, but can he do that? Is it even legal to not remove the listing add after we had made a deal? I live in WA state. Just a heads up, on the bill of sale it does say the following: "....This order shall not become binding until accepted by the DEALER or his authorized representative..." We both signed the bottom. Thank you in advance for the help.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
Get a free consult with a lawyer - laws or this will generally vary by state.

I searched the web for "Washington state and car dealer laws"
and I got
»www.ehow.com/list_6837103_washin···aws.html

Anything at the above needs to be given the once over by a lawyer imho.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


hortnut
Huh?

join:2005-09-25
PNW
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to frustrated27
said by frustrated27 :

Here's the situation. I went to a small dealership and made a deal with the rep there. I gave him 2K down and gave him the info for my financing. He faxed out the purchase agreement. He doesn't have his own financing available. Its taking my lender a little bit longer than expected (its been 9 calender days since we made a deal). He just sold the car today to another buyer for more than we had agreed upon. I do have a bill of sale and receipt of payment, but can he do that? Is it even legal to not remove the listing add after we had made a deal? I live in WA state. Just a heads up, on the bill of sale it does say the following: "....This order shall not become binding until accepted by the DEALER or his authorized representative..." We both signed the bottom. Thank you in advance for the help.

Ok This is Washington State?

Excerpt, from the Attorney General's site for WA.-

»www.atg.wa.gov/ConsumerIssues/Ca···ing.aspx

Sales Contracts

Contract Terms
BEFORE you sign, remember:

If you do not understand all of the terms and conditions, do not sign
Never sign a contract with spaces left blank, mark them out or fill them in as appropriate
By law, the dealer must separately disclose in writing the finance charge, insurance costs, taxes, and other charges you will be responsible for
You should always get a copy of each document you sign for your records
Get all verbal promises and representations in writing
If any terms vary from those you negotiated, insist they be corrected in writing
Once you sign a contract you are bound by that contract
You DO NOT have a three day right of cancellation on vehicle purchases or lease contract

If your contract states it is "subject to financing" or some other contingency, it is not advisable to take the vehicle home until financing arrangements have been completed or the contingency is met. By law, the dealer has 4 working days from the time of purchase (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays) to find financing or resolve the contingency and finalize the sale. If that is not done, there is no binding contract and the dealer must offer to return your contract documents, down payment and trade-in vehicle before attempting to negotiate a new agreement with you. If you have taken possession of the car, you must promptly return it.

Changing the Terms of the Contract
After a deal is agreed upon and the contract signed, if you are contacted by the dealer saying they now need a larger down payment or higher monthly payments, you are not required to accept these new terms.

By law, the dealer has 4 working days from the time of purchase/lease (excluding weekends and holidays) to find financing and finalize the sale according to the terms of the contract. When the dealer fails to locate the financing specified in the contract in that time period, there is no binding contract and the dealer must offer to return your contract documents, down payment, and trade-in vehicle before attempting to negotiate a new agreement with you.

If you have taken possession of the car, you must promptly return it when notified that the transaction cannot be completed within the 4 working-day period.

What you describe might fall under:

Chapter 19.86 RCW
UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES — CONSUMER PROTECTION

»apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=19.86

But then there is that 4 day thing mentioned above

hth


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1

2 edits
well there are some things missing, did he get his down payment back, was the financing agreement canceled or just being processed, because financing was found, was just being processed so that would not be a failure to find financing.

definitely get a lawyer to look at it.

also, signed bill of sale, which means the transaction was more or less completed.

"If financing by the dealer is involved, the contract must be finalized within four working days."
i think that's going to be a key thing, financing was not through the dealer.


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
said by BonezX:

also, signed bill of sale, which means the transaction was more or less completed.

More or less? In other words, it wasn't. A contingency sale with the contingency not being satisfied is no sale.


hortnut
Huh?

join:2005-09-25
PNW
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to BonezX
You should have replied to the OP and not me.

Plus as with many anons who post here, many details are left out.

Plus must remember that Washington State Law is very different than other States and other Countries.

At one time it had quite a reputation:

""And it was James Farley, Franklin D. Roosevelt's chief strategist, who once spoke of America consisting of "47 states and the soviet of Washington.""
»www.historylink.org/index.cfm?Di···_id=5451 Though probably not true.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings:

said by BonezX:

also, signed bill of sale, which means the transaction was more or less completed.

More or less? In other words, it wasn't. A contingency sale with the contingency not being satisfied is no sale.

more or less being the final cash amount hasn't changed hands.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to hortnut
said by hortnut:

But then there is that 4 day thing mentioned above

The 4 day thing is to protect the buyer and not the dealer.
If you put a deposit on a car, the dealer can only take 4 days to get you financing. If after 4 days there isn't financing available yet, you, the buyer, can pull out without losing your deposit. That way the dealer cannot hold your deposit forever and take forever to get the financing.

However I am betting that the contract in OP's situation as a clause that the buyer must find financing within X amount of days or the contract is null. That is to protect the seller from being stuck with a car they cannot sell because the buyer cannot find financing and won't give up.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
said by alkizmo:

However I am betting that the contract in OP's situation as a clause that the buyer must find financing within X amount of days or the contract is null. That is to protect the seller from being stuck with a car they cannot sell because the buyer cannot find financing and won't give up.

I'm curious how it takes 9 days (even if up to 4 of them are non-business days) to find financing. It's not a house that has a ream of paperwork that has to be done. I think the shortest I've had to wait to get loan approval is about an hour from application to having the check in my hands, and the longest about a day, and that was because I did a pre-application online.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
Depends on the FICO score - the lower it is, the longer it will take.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

1 recommendation

said by CylonRed:

Depends on the FICO score - the lower it is, the longer it will take.

I realize that. But even really crappy credit doesn't require 5+ business days. The score is almost instant. They either will be given the money, given the money if some condition (require a co-signer, larger down payment, etc) or won't get the money. That determination is also done very quickly. Any delay I'm guessing is on the applicant meeting that condition.

Regardless, the car isn't coming back. Unless the dealership is retaining the down payment and refusing to give it back, or claiming they must apply it to another car on their lot, just move on. Take your money elsewhere and lesson learned.


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
One of the lessons is to go into the dealer prepared. Line up financing first, know your credit scores and evaluate any loan proposal separately from the vehicle price.


frustrated27

@comcast.net
reply to frustrated27
Update - My apologies if i left out any details. As far as financing. I did go into the dealership with what I thought was a "pre-approved" loan. I am an assistant manager at a bank and am pretty knowledgeable about financing and what not. Unfortunately, once i had the dealership send in the purchasing order, they came back with multiple requests, and even at that, it took a couple business days for them to do so. There wasn't income verification or anything, just verification of address and they wanted the title to make sure that there were no other liens on the vehicle.

To address the other main thing i saw, there was no time frame on the bill of sale or verbally that was agreed as far as getting the financing done. At this point, i have not received my down payment back, but the dealer has already told me that it will be here within 10 business days, should i request that. He is currently keeping in contact with me trying to find me a similar vehicle since he has already sold the other.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
But the state has a time limit - as long as they abide by the law they are in the clear. I have never heard of being pre-approved with no check on income/job at all. even when credit was easier to get (for the average joe - not including very well off people).

I personally would not let the dealer help me at all - I would not do business with them. Seems to me they got a higher offer on the car and they waited just long enough to be legal and then sold it.

I would also be at the dealership demanding my money right then and there.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
Yea, AFAIK, those funds have to be in 'trust' and available on demand.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

But the state has a time limit - as long as they abide by the law they are in the clear. I have never heard of being pre-approved with no check on income/job at all. even when credit was easier to get (for the average joe - not including very well off people).

I personally would not let the dealer help me at all - I would not do business with them. Seems to me they got a higher offer on the car and they waited just long enough to be legal and then sold it.

I would also be at the dealership demanding my money right then and there.

the money has to be returned BEFORE he exits the contract and tries to make a new one, so there is an issue there.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to cdru
said by cdru:

I'm curious how it takes 9 days (even if up to 4 of them are non-business days) to find financing. It's not a house that has a ream of paperwork that has to be done. I think the shortest I've had to wait to get loan approval is about an hour from application to having the check in my hands, and the longest about a day, and that was because I did a pre-application online.

It doesn't

Mortgages can't even take more than 10 days (because often the promise of purchase agreements have a clause that you only have 10 days to get approved financing).

I've seen one case where a client of mine was buying a 100k$ boat while trading in another 50k$ boat with existing financing. At the same time that he was refinancing his house AND paying off 10k$ to the government for late income taxes.

THAT caused a 15 day delay because of this intertwined mix of conditions/factors.

bemis

join:2008-07-18
Reading, MA
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to frustrated27
I wouldn't buy a car from this dealer now... I'd demand my money back immediately, no 10 days bull, they issue a bank check that day or next day. It's the least they can do.

As for financing, it does sometimes take a while to get it all done. When I bought my used car last year I had a few things add delays... the person I was working w/ at the bank was at a conference for a day, so that added 1-2 days of delay... then the bank needed the insurance and dealer to fax them some add'l paperwork before they would proceed, and my insurance company took 3 days before they finally faxed the right paperwork. In my case I think it was about 7 business days total...


Grumpy
Premium
join:2001-07-28
NW CT
reply to frustrated27
This one seems to fall into the more trouble than it's worth to pursue category. I'd like to think the dealer was wrong, but I'd call your best interests served by moving on.

Lawyers are ususally for those with large expendable incomes, and pro se via employees of bureaucracy laden state agencies with their sites set on retirement day and little else can often make one wish they had put their head in a very tight vise instead.

»www.autotrader.com/

Sunday newspapers traditionally offer the most cars for sale offerings.


psafux
Premium,VIP
join:2005-11-10
kudos:2
reply to frustrated27
*taps his watch*

Ah yes, it's time for another "get a lawyer thread".

My 2 cents? Get a lawyer or let it go. Ain't nobody on this forum that will have an answer unless they happen to be a lawyer in your area (in which case I will eat my foot and enjoy it).


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to frustrated27
9 days is excessive.
I have obtained loans with Capital One Auto Finance - twice - and I received checks payable to a [any] dealer via FedEx overnight...

medbuyer

join:2003-11-20
kudos:4
reply to frustrated27
said by frustrated27 :

Update - My apologies if i left out any details. As far as financing. I did go into the dealership with what I thought was a "pre-approved" loan. I am an assistant manager at a bank and am pretty knowledgeable about financing and what not.

wait a minute...if you are truly an asst bank manager, this should be a cake walk for you...

did the bank you work for provide you with that "pre-approved loan"?


IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast
reply to frustrated27
Learn from my fail, financing aside; Get the vehicle checked by a third party mechanic YOU trust.

Even though the vehicle drives good on the test drive and the dealer may have a good reputation from the locals, you could be making a very costly mistake that will have you trading the car for a bus pass. I bought a 2001 Dodge stratus from a dealer in Maine (and the dealer has a good reputation from the locals), I am now taking the bus because it now needs major repairs to pass inspection.

I am surprised that banks don't require mechanical inspections before financing used cars like they require appraisals on home loans. A used car is more likely to result in a loan default if the car turns out to be a lemon. And the bank won't get much selling it at auction if it don't run.

In my case, we paid cash for the stratus. I am thinking of trading it but I need to come up with cash to buy something else. I may also consider fixing it.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to frustrated27
Every car I've bought had to have the paperwork approved the the Sales Manager...the Sales Representative is only the 1st step.

This means that only the Sales Manager is the "authorized representative". Without his or her signature, the sales contract is not legally binding. If that's the case in your jurisdiction, your are SOL and can only get your deposit back.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


Anonymous_
Anonymous
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127.0.0.1
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Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to frustrated27
said by frustrated27 :

Here's the situation. I went to a small dealership and made a deal with the rep there. I gave him 2K down and gave him the info for my financing. He faxed out the purchase agreement. He doesn't have his own financing available. Its taking my lender a little bit longer than expected (its been 9 calender days since we made a deal). He just sold the car today to another buyer for more than we had agreed upon. I do have a bill of sale and receipt of payment, but can he do that? Is it even legal to not remove the listing add after we had made a deal? I live in WA state. Just a heads up, on the bill of sale it does say the following: "....This order shall not become binding until accepted by the DEALER or his authorized representative..." We both signed the bottom. Thank you in advance for the help.

Bill of sale is a legal sale document.