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footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
reply to Jobbie

Re: [Raiding] Good bye World of Warcraft

You should have offered to sell it to him, then demanded his first born child. The rage would have been epic.
--
Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO
reply to Jobbie
With LFD the whole MS>OS>vendor/DE went out the window, even Blizz said so when a blue post said theat LFD was to help gear your OS.

In this case the lock was just being a 12 y/o whining that his epeen go smashed with a hammer. I had the same thing happen in LFD's. I am to the point where I groan if I see the healer is a druid since I've lost 5 pieces on my rogue to resto druids rolling need on agility leather and a dagger. Though on one I rolled need on and won a healing weapon after he rolled need on and won a leather helm with agility saying his tank set needed it. I just told him my recuperate would heal better with int and spirit on the weapon. He wouldn't trade items either, he just wanted me to give him the damn thing for nothing.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by bTU:

With LFD the whole MS>OS>vendor/DE went out the window, even Blizz said so when a blue post said theat LFD was to help gear your OS.

That's one interpretation of what they said. The other is to look at it from a "what the loot systems will support" perspective. The LFR loot system does not support OS gearing. You have to be in the spec at the time of the kill to get gear for that spec. Period. However, since LFD system was not changed... the loot is designated by class, not by role/spec. Therefore, it will support OS gearing.

Some take that as Blizzard killing the MS>OS>vender/DE convention... I don't agree. I really think they were just demonstrating difference between the 2 loot systems.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Dissembled

join:2008-01-23
Indianapolis, IN
reply to Jobbie
Downloaded Spartan and Bartender last night. Loved the clean UI of it, but what a pain in the ass to work with! Ended up deleting both after an hour of frustration trying to customize it.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
said by Dissembled:

Downloaded Spartan and Bartender last night. Loved the clean UI of it, but what a pain in the ass to work with! Ended up deleting both after an hour of frustration trying to customize it.

yeah I have been working with the vanilla options and just taking the party and raid frames since I have my own. Glad you tried it out they have been improving the customization options before was almost impossible to do anything with it without breaking it.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to mettachain
I've been meaning to give ElvUI a shot... it looks very clean. My biggest problem (and frankly a show-stopper for me) is Grid. I hate grid. I'd rather be forced to use Healbot... seriously... screw Grid+8extensions.

Can you dump grid from ElvUI and run with blizz raid frame?


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

said by bTU:

With LFD the whole MS>OS>vendor/DE went out the window, even Blizz said so when a blue post said theat LFD was to help gear your OS.

That's one interpretation of what they said. The other is to look at it from a "what the loot systems will support" perspective. The LFR loot system does not support OS gearing. You have to be in the spec at the time of the kill to get gear for that spec. Period. However, since LFD system was not changed... the loot is designated by class, not by role/spec. Therefore, it will support OS gearing.

Some take that as Blizzard killing the MS>OS>vender/DE convention... I don't agree. I really think they were just demonstrating difference between the 2 loot systems.

The idea of LFD is to gear your class not the particular spec you are on that particular moment, sometimes (read most) you are expected to have 2 fully functional gear sets at least for this tier.

"LF Healer with DPS OS for MV 460+ ilvl pst"

How is that people going to do that?

Queue only for heals and pass on all dps stuff and then queue as dps and pass on all the heal stuff to strangers. The only ones suffering this is the player and his/her guild.

LFD and Dual Spec killed the MS>OS theory, before it was a lot easier to enforce because for you to have an OS you had to have the gear first, go to the trainer to respec, move all your bars a lot etc. So people had their main spec that they only played and used their OS for those odd moments where they were needed for an encounter.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Jobbie:

LFD and Dual Spec killed the MS>OS theory

For some, not all. That is both the beginning and the end of this 'argument'. Some still think its better to assume MS>OS and negotiate for OS rolls than to assume that blizz allowing me to roll Need means everyone should be okay with it.

Again, not saying you are wrong... but we are not wrong, either. Just 2 different ways of looking at the social aspect of the game.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO
No matter what, not everyone is going to be OK with it. I know with what I did some will say it was revenge on the healer to take the healer weapon when he took the agility piece, and others would say two wrongs don't make a right. We're all humans and at our core we have selfish impulses that extend (especially) into WoW. My pixels are more important than your pixels damnit! And with the police (Blizz) not intervening to rectify what some feel are injustices towards them you get to see human nature at its worst. Like someone making a level one toon to harrass you on your home server, over something in a video game.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Immer
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just giving you the points of the reasoning for MS=OS. It is your choice to kick a player for following the loot rules blizzard has established.

I am going to leave this here:

said by Blizzard CM Bashiok :

Thanks! I was getting ready to link that in that other thread, but it capped before I could.

I think it's important to note that our support policies match what's reasonably enforceable, and this really can't be a conversation about our support team making the right or wrong decisions, or helping or not helping. It's unreasonable for them to act as arbiters for every piece of loot that drops in every dungeon for every player. I hope that's something we can all agree with.

What can and should be discussed, and something we've been discussing a bit more internally, is the loot rules themselves to potentially prevent the issue in the first place. Clearly the current dungeon loot rules are fairly lax to allow for people to gear up in different ways. We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid. We want to allow them to run dungeons over and over to make up for bad luck in their drops. Just with those two things combined there will be people in your groups rolling on items you believe to be better for you.

One side issue that's made this all seem much worse is that with the launch of Mists a lot of items were tagged incorrectly, leading to people being able to roll on items they just have no business being able to roll on regardless of specs available to them. That makes the system just seem broken, when it's only a couple items that are essentially 'bugged'. We of course want to get to those bugs as quickly as possible.

There are clear benefits to allowing people to roll on off-spec items, or run dungeons over and over to try to get an item (or even just because they enjoy dungeons!). There are also clear issues it can cause when the factor of who 'deserves an item more' comes into it. Being matched with strangers you can never truly know someone else's intentions, and conclusions are easy to jump to. The converse though, where you can only roll on your current spec, is a system where you're locked into gearing up a specific way, and discourages (or maybe completely blocks) changing roles or even gearing up an off-spec - even if no one else wants an item.

There are many considerations to be made, but the discussion of LFD vs LFR loot systems is a larger one than even just this issue, and the devs seem intent on discussing it more and more as this expansion rolls on.

Until then, if you want to ensure you get the drop you want, I really recommend forming a group with trusted friends and guild mates if at all possible. Plus you can talk trash on them the whole time, which makes everything with friends more fun!

»us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic···age=3#47
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
I read that. My interpretation had an implied "with 5 people, you have a much higher chance that someone WON'T need an OS piece main spec, so you can get gear that way", and that's how I roll.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
said by Nick D:

I read that. My interpretation had an implied "with 5 people, you have a much higher chance that someone WON'T need an OS piece main spec, so you can get gear that way", and that's how I roll.

"We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid."
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
Rephrased: "You can actually GET OS gear in a 5 man because we don't lock you in auto-rolls based on spec like we do in LFR."

Says nothing about etiquette in MS/OS considerations.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
said by Nick D:

Rephrased: "You can actually GET OS gear in a 5 man because we don't lock you in auto-rolls based on spec like we do in LFR."

Says nothing about etiquette in MS/OS considerations.

Read again:

"We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid."

They want people to roll for the stuff they need for their class to fulfill any role they want, that is the purpose of LFD, this is why MS>OS doesn't work.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Nick D
And if you got a barely geared tank that cheezed ilvl with pvp gear you'd kick him right?

yep, I don't know about you but I'd want a gearing tank to do a less critical role till they have zero pvp gear and have good enough gear that gear won't be a problem.

only issue then is when geared they'll ether be annoyed that the one item won't drop or not need anything from heroics.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
I'd be more happy to carry a DPS'ing tank roller than to have a wipefest while they get gear.

LFR is easy enough that you can have half the group derping and still kill the boss normally, but if you picked to play as tank then you must tank there are only 2 of them and most fights are 2 tank fights.


Feralmordius

join:2011-01-18
said by DarkLogix:

I'd be more happy to carry a DPS'ing tank roller than to have a wipefest while they get gear.

So says the mage....
--
Tiermordius on Nathrezim Server (US)
Main Tank for Pride and Ego


Energystream
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY
reply to Jobbie
Bliz said working as intended. Accept as I have (~mid Cataclysm) and move on. Getting upset now, just means you are angry at RNG right? Although directing your rage at someone always feels better.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Feralmordius
said by Feralmordius:

said by DarkLogix:

I'd be more happy to carry a DPS'ing tank roller than to have a wipefest while they get gear.

So says the mage....

The mage that was there for the healerless 2man kill of the last boss of SSB thanks to an awesome tank.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
reply to Jobbie
I gear up to DPS by tanking no problem. I roll need on DPS gear that no plate DPS need MS. I'm happy because I got gear. That ret pally is happy because I didn't take his weapon that he will use a lot more than I do. And that other warrior is happy because I don't need that tank back anymore, so he gears up his tank set in *gasp* a 5man!

Your interpretation also makes sense. But don't consider it a Blizzard endorsement.


Feralmordius

join:2011-01-18
reply to mettachain
I like the look of ElvUI. If I want to try it out, can I just backup the whole addon folder and start clean?

Spartan is a heavy UI that relies on a lot of pieces. I am worried one of those pieces I might miss/need. I want to be able to switch back without having to re-setup everything if I feel the need.
--
Tiermordius on Nathrezim Server (US)
Main Tank for Pride and Ego


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Nick D
All good, I agree to disagree.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Feralmordius
said by Feralmordius:

I like the look of ElvUI. If I want to try it out, can I just backup the whole addon folder and start clean?

Spartan is a heavy UI that relies on a lot of pieces. I am worried one of those pieces I might miss/need. I want to be able to switch back without having to re-setup everything if I feel the need.

Before you do any major change to your UI backup your Interface and WTF folders so you don't have to setup everything again.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL

1 recommendation

reply to Jobbie
UI discussion > MS/OS discussion.
Next person to bring up MS/OS is SO BANNED1111 don't mess with mod bra11111


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by jofos:

Next person to bring up MS/OS is SO BANNED1111 don't mess with mod bra11111

Is there a way to have one UI for MS and another completely different UI for OS?


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
I doubt it.

but I've never used a nonstandard UI (as I hear about lots of breaking on patch days.)

but you could make a batch file that would rename the relevant folders thus switching UI's


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Immer
said by Immer:

Is there a way to have one UI for MS and another completely different UI for OS?

ICWUTUDIDTHAR
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
reply to DarkLogix
Or just set up AddonControlPanel. I dunno if you can auto-switch loaded addons based on spec switch, but you can certainly have full profiles set.

Maybe.

Actually, what handles all the "profiles" various addons have? Is that an Ace thing? Because its standardized in many cases, but not all.

Also, I need to see about having keybinding profiles in bartender. I have different binds for 5 mans vs raids (namely whether I have interrupts handy).


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Nick D:

Or just set up AddonControlPanel. I dunno if you can auto-switch loaded addons based on spec switch, but you can certainly have full profiles set.

On a serious note... I should set up my AddonControlPanel to manage profiles.

I wish bartender and clique profile management were a little more intuitive. It takes sooo long for me to swap out one of my healing specs for shadow, or vice-versa.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
We all can move here.

»[Raiding] UI and Addon Thread

I will ask the mods to lock this thread it was a great discussion from you all.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.