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Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Nick D

Re: [Raiding] Good bye World of Warcraft

We all helped get the boss down so now I am not entitled for any loot I can use?

I didn't vendor it or disenchanted.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to Nick D
If que on my priest I que healer/dps, on my druid tank/dps, I play dps on both most of the time so if I'm healing or tanking shouldn't I be able to still roll for something I can use? I understand the guy being aggrovated but its not banable.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

The social contract of WoW is you roll your spec. It is most decidedly not against the game's rules, so the GMs will not intervene in Jobbie's case, but it doesn't mean he's not a jerk.

Yeah, I've never EVER heard of healers rolling off-spec in 5 man dungeons. I mean, LFG loot is serious business.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

but it doesn't mean he's not a jerk.

i disagree, if you farmed a dungeon for 50 runs and the 51st run you decide to tank it and that awesome piece of gear drops for you, you mean to tell me that you would have qualms about rolling need on it, the only way someone would be a jerk is if they had it already but you have no way of knowing that, if they dont have it equiped so, no he was not a jerk.
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
We all have the same dice right?


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

The social contract of WoW is you roll your spec. It is most decidedly not against the game's rules, so the GMs will not intervene in Jobbie's case, but it doesn't mean he's not a jerk.

"social contracts" such as that don't stand up, kinda like honor among theives.

Blizz even said LFD supports OS, LFR doesn't.

Blizz is cool with people rolling OS in LFD.
in LFR you have to actually spec into the role you want gear for, which isn't so bad so long as you have atleast 3 real healers and 2 real tanks.

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to Jobbie
said by Jobbie:

We all have the same dice right?

no mine have 20 sides so they're better than yours!

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE

1 recommendation

reply to Jobbie
exactly rng is rng, if i roll need and lose then fair play to that person, i will bitch at rng not the person, he didnt fix the game to his favor, would my chances have been greater had he not rolled of course, but if my aunt had a dick shed be my uncle,
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Jobbie
said by Jobbie:

We all have the same dice right?

/roll 1000


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
said by DarkLogix:

said by Jobbie:

We all have the same dice right?

/roll 1000

said by jofos:

said by Jobbie:

We all have the same dice right?

no mine have 20 sides so they're better than yours!

Haxxorz
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Jobbie
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to jofos
said by jofos:

said by Jobbie:

We all have the same dice right?

no mine have 20 sides so they're better than yours!

WTB paying with golden carps!
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

1 recommendation

reply to cymraeg
Replying to a random post in this thread-within-a-thread:

Are we disagreeing that the social contract is "you roll your spec"? Or are we saying screw the social contract?

If we disagreeing ... well, we have differing opinions. But I'd argue that years of LFD and LFR have shown us MS > OS is pretty standard.

If we're saying "screw the contract", that's fine. Just accept that others will view you as a jerk. Maybe that matters to you, because you're like me and you prefer to that random people think of you as a "nice guy".

Maybe you take a view that "it's WoW, 5 mans are srs biz, and when am I ever going to see these guys anyways?", which is reasonable, but it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't see you as a jerk. It's just that it doesn't affect you.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
Personally I roll my spec and will refuse non-spec items.

and sure its polite to let the DPS get DPS but you are at the mercy of the RNG gods.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Nick D
And Jobbie is no jerk... the whole thing might have played out better if the one who perceived he had been wronged chose to react better than he did.


Jobbie
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Nick D
The MS>OS contract was broken with LFD there is no social interaction there, go in pull get loot queue again.

If you want to follow that contract and get social interaction run with you have the option to run with your guild or people you know from your realid/battlenet tag.

I've found that the battle tag system has enabled me to get back to those "get a strong friends list" times when there was no LFD.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
reply to Nick D
i am a nice guy, but if need something then i need it, if you need it as well then roll and let rng decide who gets it and move on, it has nothing to do with being nice or not. and i see the same ppl in lfd many times.

now im not talking a plate class rolling need on cloth or leather that is wrong, or a warrior rolling need on int plate again wrong, but if i am a ret pally and a piece of int plate drops and i also am a healer in bg's or what have you then hell yes i will roll need on it, even if there is a holy pally in the group.

where is written/implied that your role gaurantees you exclusive rolls on gear.

edit for grammar police
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Jobbie
just because it is broken for the majority, does not mean we should do likewise ourselves. We can still uphold what we believe to be right... in the midst of a sea of wrong.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

Replying to a random post in this thread-within-a-thread:

Are we disagreeing that the social contract is "you roll your spec"? Or are we saying screw the social contract?

If we disagreeing ... well, we have differing opinions. But I'd argue that years of LFD and LFR have shown us MS > OS is pretty standard.

If we're saying "screw the contract", that's fine. Just accept that others will view you as a jerk. Maybe that matters to you, because you're like me and you prefer to that random people think of you as a "nice guy".

Maybe you take a view that "it's WoW, 5 mans are srs biz, and when am I ever going to see these guys anyways?", which is reasonable, but it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't see you as a jerk. It's just that it doesn't affect you.

You could argue that Blizzard threw the social contract out the window with the impersonal LFD/LFR match-making tools. Zero social interaction required--you get thrown in with a bunch of strangers and anyone can roll need on anything any spec of their class can use.

You may have your own personal "LFD morals", but what are you going to do when the pally tank takes that dps or healer trinket because his need role beat yours? How well do those morals work in a real world of needy strangers?

The whole purpose of LFD is to gear up for LFR, most people accept that--even if it means bag-stacking offspec gear or rolling on your offspec.

Your social contract was broken back in Cata. If you had to manually put a group together, travel to the instance, summon everyone, then clear, you have a stronger argument for enforcing ML or MS>OS, but the new LFD just means free loot split between you and four randoms.

How nice or mean you are to four completely random strangers is up to you, but the Golden Rule rarely works well when epics are on the line.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to cymraeg
BTW speaking of loot.

one time in OS3D (btw I still need to do OS-0D25 for the other achievement)

me and a friend put together a pug, said mount will be open rolled on.

2 raging peps claim we ninja-d it, but the chat log was there to see, it was on group loot and my friend won to roll.

some people will just range if they don't get their way.


Jobbie
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

just because it is broken for the majority, does not mean we should do likewise ourselves. We can still uphold what we believe to be right... in the midst of a sea of wrong.

Thing is there is nothing wrong with it, everybody that can use the item gets a need button and roll the same dice for an item from a boss we all helped to kill.

There is no such thing as MS or OS in LFD if there was we would see LFR style rolling which would be horrible for tanks and healers, and bad for the queues as a whole.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
reply to Jobbie
said by Jobbie:

The MS>OS contract was broken with LFD there is no social interaction there, go in pull get loot queue again.

I think the MS>OS contract is one of the few conventions left in LFD, because it's based on an expectation: you've queued as whatever role, as whatever spec, and you're trying for loot on that role/spec. It helps keep a balance, because you limit the competition for particular pieces.

There's so many other ways I do not need to help people. I'm not a jerk if I drop group instead of requeing again. I'm not expected to help these people again by tanking for them, now or at any point in the future. I don't need to switch to an alt and enchant that new piece of gear they just got.

At least I can not ninja the one piece of gear they've been gunning for. It makes me feel better to think they're not raging at me, even though it has no material bearing on my gaming experience.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Jobbie
Per blizz, LFD supports OS, LFR doesn't.

There's a blue post on mmo-champ about it.

the advantage of LFR is if you get something its for your spec.
the advantage of LFD is you can roll OS.


Jobbie
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico
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reply to Nick D
So you want me to put all my awesome tank/healing gear on my bag and queue as a dps to do a shitty job and get into a 2 hr queue so I can roll on my MS for that particular moment.

Good.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

You could argue that Blizzard threw the social contract out the window with the impersonal LFD/LFR match-making tools. Zero social interaction required--you get thrown in with a bunch of strangers and anyone can roll need on anything any spec of their class can use.

I mean, we're just in two boats here. I care more about what random strangers that I will never see again think of me than most do.

edit: clarified my position


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
reply to Jobbie
said by Jobbie:

So you want me to put all my awesome tank/healing gear on my bag and queue as a dps to do a shitty job and get into a 2 hr queue so I can roll on my MS for that particular moment.

Good.

S'what I do. But hey, since I can tank or heal queue real quick, eventually my 5 man group will have no main speccers and voila, personal-morals-approved offspec gear. Win game.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Nick D
The way I roll is, if I win an item but the other guy has far worse gear and that one item is a huge upgrade but debatable upgrade or just minor I'll trade it to them.

happened in DS, heroic moss shoulders dropped, I didn't really want to lose my set bonus and the other mage had some crappy shoulders, so I gave them the item.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico
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reply to Nick D
said by Nick D:

said by Jobbie:

So you want me to put all my awesome tank/healing gear on my bag and queue as a dps to do a shitty job and get into a 2 hr queue so I can roll on my MS for that particular moment.

Good.

S'what I do. But hey, since I can tank or heal queue real quick, eventually my 5 man group will have no main speccers and voila, personal-morals-approved offspec gear. Win game.

If most of the people did that, there will be not enough tanks/healers in queue, there is already a shortage as it is, or the ones that queue will make the rest of the group suffer their "gearing" process.

No thanks if I can make the group go well fast and easy we all deserve to roll on the stuff we all helped to get.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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reply to Jobbie
said by Jobbie:

So you want me to put all my awesome tank/healing gear on my bag and queue as a dps to do a shitty job ...

No one is saying that. All he is saying is that if someone else needs it more for their main spec, he would rather hand it over than feel like he ninja'd the piece.

You rolled need because Blizz said you could. You won the item. the little lock who could nerd raged on you... which made him look pretty bad. In the end. We (PnE) were with you in countless runs trying to get the stupid holiday boss trinket... and then the rings... we know you handle bad drops and bad rolls much better than that lock did.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Jobbie
I agree.

I'd rather the group have a geared healer and I might have to roll against him than a gearing healer that can barely get into heroics let along give a silky smooth run.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico
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reply to DarkLogix
said by DarkLogix:

The way I roll is, if I win an item but the other guy has far worse gear and that one item is a huge upgrade but debatable upgrade or just minor I'll trade it to them.

happened in DS, heroic moss shoulders dropped, I didn't really want to lose my set bonus and the other mage had some crappy shoulders, so I gave them the item.

I've done that in the past and when I run with the guild I will always pass gear to lower geared members even if its an upgrade for me.
That is the social interaction that you see, now the new LFR broke that rule too.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.