 FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ
2 edits | Generator doesn't work with Power Vent Hot Water Heater I have a 4000w peak watt portable gene, and am having problems getting it to run my power vent gas water heater. The electronics come on when I plug it in but shortly the error indicator lights on my AO Smith indicate "High Resistance to Earth Ground" see pic. I have a 8awg wire attached to the ground bolt on the gene, and that is attached to a 10awg wire which is in the ground about 6 inches, 25 ft away. The same receptacle powers other devices, a freezer, sump pump, just fine (not at the same time though) but the heater just doesn't want to run. Anyone have any ideas? Here is the manual... TIA!!
»www.hotwater.com/lit/im/res_gas/319688.pdf |
|
 shdesignsPowered By Infinite Improbabilty DrivePremium
join:2000-12-01
Stone Mountain, GA | Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater Sounds like you generator does not have neutral tied to ground. |
|
Reviews:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·AT&T Midwest
 ·voip.ms
| reply to Frink
said by Frink:I have a 8awg wire attached to the ground bolt on the gene, and that is attached to a 10awg wire which is in the ground about 6 inches, 25 ft away.
#1. I don't understand what you mean by, "attached ... in the ground about 6 inches, 25 ft away." Are they connected by metallic wire, or are you depending on actual "earth" for the connection?
#2. Are you running through a transfer switch, or did you disconnect this from the utility power? Just wondering if there's somewhere hot & neutral got flipped. I assume you're not backfeeding. Right?
#3. This is a power vent heater. A direct vent does not require any power.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
USNGWeb |
|
|
|
 leiboldPremium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
·SONIC.NET
| reply to Frink
That 10awg wire that is 6 inches deep in the earth probably doesn't qualify as a proper ground (it would have to be a very long wire to provide sufficient contact surface and the soil conditions would have to be just right to get away with such a shallow depth). Other then dissipating static electricity (which is also important) this wire is not useful.
Even if you had a wire from the generator ground bolt to the grounding rod of your home (which is the best way to ground the generator) your water heater would still complain unless there is a bond between the neutral from your generator to ground (meaning the equipment grounding conductor for your home and not the 10 awg wire attached to your generator).
This bond can be inside the generator (some come this way from the factory) and if you are directly plugging in appliances to the generator (using extension cords) that is where it needs to be.
If you are using a transfer switch (or generator lockout kit) the neutral ground bonding is inside your main electric panel (in that case the neutral should not be also bonded to ground inside the generator).
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire! |
|
FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | reply to ArgMeMatey
Ah yes power vent thank you.
The gene has a ground bolt on it, I ran 25 feet of 8awg stranded wire from that bolt, to a stake of solid 10awg which I stripped of insulation and drove into the ground about 6 inches.
No transfer switch, I run extension cords direct.
I know it isn't the best thing to ask advice on, but is there any way I could circumvent that neutral to ground requirement or build a junction to do that in between the gene and the heater? I am no electrician obviously, but I would literally be sitting in front of the thing for the 20minutes it takes to heat the water then disconnect it...my wife and kids are starting to stink  |
|
leiboldPremium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
| said by Frink: is there any way I could circumvent that neutral to ground requirement That requirement is for your safety and hopefully your water heater is built in such a way to make it more difficult to bypass the safety feature then it is to use it properly.
At the minimum you need to connect neutral and ground at your generator (that is easy enough to do). However I would also suggest to take that 25ft 8 awg wire and connect the generator ground to your building ground (at the grounding rod would be perfect but anywhere is better then that 10 awg wire stuck in the earth).
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire! |
|
 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | reply to Frink
said by Frink:is there any way I could circumvent that neutral to ground requirement or build a junction to do that in between the gene and the heater?
Now I'll probably get grilled for this, but:
Find a 3-prong plug that you can "dispose" of, as in, you don't care.
Cut off the cable on that plug while leaving a good 3 to 6 inches of cable still on it.
Strip the green and white wires inside that cable, and join them together with a wire nut. (Cut off the "hot" prong and cap the "hot" wire). Then plug that into a free socket on your generator. That will make a "removable" neutral/ground bond.
Now if it's "safe", I don't know, I just know it's not the proper way to do it, but I'm guessing you're in an "emergency" situation. |
|
FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | Thanks everyone for your input. Greatly appreciated. |
|
FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:said by Frink:is there any way I could circumvent that neutral to ground requirement or build a junction to do that in between the gene and the heater?
Now I'll probably get grilled for this, but: Find a 3-prong plug that you can "dispose" of, as in, you don't care. Cut off the cable on that plug while leaving a good 3 to 6 inches of cable still on it. Strip the green and white wires inside that cable, and join them together with a wire nut. (Cut off the "hot" prong and cap the "hot" wire). Then plug that into a free socket on your generator. That will make a "removable" neutral/ground bond. Now if it's "safe", I don't know, I just know it's not the proper way to do it, but I'm guessing you're in an "emergency" situation. So, in theory of course, I would plug that modified plug in to one of the two 120v outlets on the front of the generator, then the second would go straight to the water heater, correct? ...and wouldn't connect anything else for the period of time the heater needs to run, then remove the modified plug once complete. Thanks. |
|
alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | The modified plug would join the ground to the neutral. Your WH is looking for that bond so it can know it was properly grounded. |
|
FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | said by alkizmo:The modified plug would join the ground to the neutral. Your WH is looking for that bond so it can know it was properly grounded.
Got it, so if I have two 120v 3 prong outlets on my generator, one gets the modified plug, and the second just goes to the WH? |
|
alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by Frink:Got it, so if I have two 120v 3 prong outlets on my generator, one gets the modified plug, and the second just goes to the WH?
Yes exactly, you gotta sacrifice one outlet for the modified plug.
If you can wait, I would hold out until one of our pros come to comment in this thread. I'm not even sure if I would do this modification myself without having my generator's chassis grounded to the house's ground. |
|
 jack bGone FishingPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1
1 edit | reply to Frink
Did you confirm the hot/neutral polarity is correct on your supply "cord"?
And YES, most portable generators have a floating neutral that is NOT electrically bonded to the generators ground conductor. |
|
 tp0dyabbazooiePremium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
kudos:4 | reply to alkizmo
I`m an AO Smith warranty service agent, and I can honestly say I havent run into this situation yet.
The control needs a good ground to prove flame properly. If you bond the water heater to the ground rod, it may work. (ie-- run a #14 conductor from chassis ground on the heater to the ground rod)
I know generators can provide noisy power. I have seen noisy power/bad power kill a powervent control. Hope you dont let the smoke out..
good luck, stinky :P
-j
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!) |
|
 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8
·Charter
 ·surpasshosting
·voip.ms
| reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:said by Frink:is there any way I could circumvent that neutral to ground requirement or build a junction to do that in between the gene and the heater?
Now I'll probably get grilled for this, but: Find a 3-prong plug that you can "dispose" of, as in, you don't care. Cut off the cable on that plug while leaving a good 3 to 6 inches of cable still on it. Strip the green and white wires inside that cable, and join them together with a wire nut. (Cut off the "hot" prong and cap the "hot" wire). Then plug that into a free socket on your generator. That will make a "removable" neutral/ground bond. Now if it's "safe", I don't know, I just know it's not the proper way to do it, but I'm guessing you're in an "emergency" situation. Don't do this. It's dangerous. Emergency or not. An "emergency" situation never constitutes doing stupid things. Quite the opposite. Don't create a "life or death" emergency trying to alleviate a "loss of comfort" situation.
As explained, your WH is looking for neutral and ground to be bonded. Ordinarily, this would be in the main disconnect (main panel). In your case, it would need to be at the genset.
There are multiple things that could wrong using this cheat. Anything metallic connected to the WH could become energized by the generator in such a scenario. This includes the metallic case and any metallic piping (gas or water). This could electrocute anyone touching them.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
|
jack bGone FishingPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1 | Scenario gives a whole new meaning to "hot water heater"... |
|
| I have the same problem and AO smith told me today too bad! They stated that their units are not intended to wOrk with generators. I see lots of opinions on this post but not a clear safe answer? |
|
sk1939Premium
join:2010-10-23
Washington, DC
kudos:9 Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
| said by Kurtis :I have the same problem and AO smith told me today too bad! They stated that their units are not intended to wOrk with generators. I see lots of opinions on this post but not a clear safe answer?
Get a transfer panel and a decent generator. |
|
nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8 Reviews:
·Charter
·surpasshosting
·voip.ms
| reply to Frink
Most portable generators come with a neutral / ground bond jumper inside the generator panel. In certain situations, removing the neutral - ground bond may be desirable.
For situations where the portable generator is feeding equipment directly out of its on-board receptacles, a bond is desired.
Did you buy this generator new? If it's used, someone may have defeated the bonding jumper for feeding a transfer switch with an un-switched neutral.
Without the specific model number (and manual) to your generator, we are just pissing in the wind.
Although not required when using a portable generator with extensions, I prefer to ground the chassis to the house ground rod if powering any appliance within the home.
A piece of wire stuck in the ground a few inches is not an acceptable ground under any circumstance.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
|
 alphapointeDon't Touch MePremium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
kudos:2
·Socket Internet ..
| reply to Frink
You mean this isn't the right way to do it?
/sarcasm
--
"When the hammer drops, the bullshit stops" |
|
