| reply to Frink
Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater It's a whole lot easier to just wire the generator directly into your electrical panel. That's what we did during IKE.
Turn the main breaker off and install a normal 30-50amp breaker (depending on how much your gene puts out) in the box with the other breakers and connect the generator to it and connect the common to the common/ground rail.
The breaker will allow reverse flow and power everything. Just keep track of what you turn on and don't exceed what your generator puts out.
The nice thing about this setup is we were able to turn on all our security lights and pouch lights.
When the power comes back on, turn the breaker to the generator off and the main breaker back on.
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CompTIA Network+ Certified |
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 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | Are you for real, TechGuru?
Nunya nearly ripped my head off for suggesting a temporary N/G bond.
What you're suggesting is much much much worse. |
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 SwedishRiderRider on the StormPremium
join:2006-01-11
Connecticut
kudos:1 | reply to nunya
said by nunya:Most portable generators come with a neutral / ground bond jumper inside the generator panel
I'm not so sure that most generators come with a N/G bond actually. My 6K watt Sportsman doesn't, and when I brought my testing meter to Lowe's many months ago just out of curiosity, a grand total of zero floor demo models had a N/G bond.
I'm not sure if the manufacturers assume that homeowners will have the bond in their panel (as that's what most homeowners buy generators for) or some other reason, but I'm inclined to think that most generators available in the hardware stores do not have a N/G bond from the factory. |
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Zach 58Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota | said by SwedishRider:said by nunya:Most portable generators come with a neutral / ground bond jumper inside the generator panel
I'm not so sure that most generators come with a N/G bond actually. My 6K watt Sportsman doesn't, and when I brought my testing meter to Lowe's many months ago just out of curiosity, a grand total of zero floor demo models had a N/G bond. I'm not sure if the manufacturers assume that homeowners will have the bond in their panel (as that's what most homeowners buy generators for) or some other reason, but I'm inclined to think that most generators available in the hardware stores do not have a N/G bond from the factory. Some manufacturers will provide a jumper and instructions on how to connect it. It seems, more often than not, if the generator manufacturer provides GFCI protection on, at least, the 120V 15-20A receptacles, there is either a bond connected at the factory or a factory supplied provision for it. That NOT to say there aren't some without GFCI protection that are bonded or some with GFCI protection lack a bond and/or a provision for it.
A floating system is, in many cases, considerably safer when using portable cord and plug connected equipment since there isn't a return path from either circuit conductor to ground. Once the neutral is bonded to ground, the potential for a ground-fault (faulty cords, tools etc) exists even if the genny is only sitting on the damp ground without connection to a grounding electrode. The danger becomes the same as using a non-GFCI protected receptacle powered by the utility.
Looking at some of the suggestions made on Internet forums seems to suggest that many don't quite understand that electricity from a generator will kill someone just as dead as electricity provided by the POCO. Electricity+inexperience+tiredness+darkness+dampness can equal a death statistic.
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Zach |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by Zach 58:A floating system is, in many cases, considerably safer when using portable cord and plug connected equipment since there isn't a return path from either circuit conductor to ground. Once the neutral is bonded to ground, the potential for a ground-fault (faulty cords, tools etc) exists even if the genny is only sitting on the damp ground without connection to a grounding electrode.
Ok, maybe that's the part that confused me about floating neutral generators.
Are you saying that if a generator has floating neutral, and I touch a hot conductor from that generator, I will NOT get shocked because the neutral of the generator isn't touching the ground (Hence no return path)?? |
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ke4pymPremium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC Reviews:
 ·VOIPo
 ·Verizon Broadban..
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·Northland Cable ..
| reply to TheTechGuru
said by TheTechGuru:It's a whole lot easier to just wire the generator directly into your electrical panel. That's what we did during IKE.
Turn the main breaker off and install a normal 30-50amp breaker (depending on how much your gene puts out) in the box with the other breakers and connect the generator to it and connect the common to the common/ground rail.
The breaker will allow reverse flow and power everything. Just keep track of what you turn on and don't exceed what your generator puts out.
The nice thing about this setup is we were able to turn on all our security lights and pouch lights.
When the power comes back on, turn the breaker to the generator off and the main breaker back on.
Been there, done this and won't hesitate to do it again. |
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 Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to TheTechGuru
said by TheTechGuru:It's a whole lot easier to just wire the generator directly into your electrical panel. That's what we did during IKE.
Turn the main breaker off and install a normal 30-50amp breaker (depending on how much your gene puts out) in the box with the other breakers and connect the generator to it and connect the common to the common/ground rail.
The breaker will allow reverse flow and power everything. Just keep track of what you turn on and don't exceed what your generator puts out.
The nice thing about this setup is we were able to turn on all our security lights and pouch lights.
When the power comes back on, turn the breaker to the generator off and the main breaker back on.
A lot of people use this method like this or with the manual main/generator breaker interlock. Works fine. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to ke4pym
said by ke4pym:Been there, done this and won't hesitate to do it again.
Beats a bunch of extension cords running everywhere. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:A lot of people use this method like this or with the manual main/generator breaker interlock. Works fine. The breaker interlock or transfer switch is fine.
Simply going into a breaker is almost no different than using a suicide cable and plugging it into the dryer socket. |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8
·Charter
 ·surpasshosting
·voip.ms
| reply to TheTechGuru
Don't ever do this either. It's illegal and dangerous (highly susceptible to human error which could result in someones death). A proper interlock isn't that expensive.
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If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
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 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to nunya
said by nunya: An "emergency" situation never constitutes doing stupid things. Quite the opposite. Don't create a "life or death" emergency trying to alleviate a "loss of comfort" situation.
Amen. Amazing how people want their comforts like hot water and A/C in the midst of a power outage. I can see wanting to run a fridge or freezer and a water pump on a well and maybe a stove, but a hot water heater? 
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1
2 edits | reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:said by Jack_in_VA:A lot of people use this method like this or with the manual main/generator breaker interlock. Works fine. The breaker interlock or transfer switch is fine. Simply going into a breaker is almost no different than using a suicide cable and plugging it into the dryer socket. Never mind... |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1
1 edit | reply to DKS
said by DKS:said by nunya: An "emergency" situation never constitutes doing stupid things. Quite the opposite. Don't create a "life or death" emergency trying to alleviate a "loss of comfort" situation.
Amen. Amazing how people want their comforts like hot water and A/C in the midst of a power outage. I can see wanting to run a fridge or freezer and a water pump on a well and maybe a stove, but a hot water heater? I use my generator to heat my water for showers. What's wrong with that? I just turn off everything else and turn the breaker on for the water heater and let it heat. It only takes about an hour. The hot water is enough for 2 showers and hot water for hand washing etc through the day.
So why do you have a problem with that? There is nothing "amazing" about it. Why take cold showers when you don't have to? |
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| reply to Frink
The generator we did it with was hardwired. Everything was perfectly safe as long as no one turned on the main and generator breaker at the same time. No one had a key to the electrical box but me so no issue there.
As long as we weren't backfeeding the system, electric company could care less and it was outside the city limits away from city inspectors.
But in the future I want a propane generator and a 500 gallon tank buried cuz keeping the tank filled was a PITA.
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CompTIA Network+ Certified |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:said by DKS:said by nunya: An "emergency" situation never constitutes doing stupid things. Quite the opposite. Don't create a "life or death" emergency trying to alleviate a "loss of comfort" situation.
Amen. Amazing how people want their comforts like hot water and A/C in the midst of a power outage. I can see wanting to run a fridge or freezer and a water pump on a well and maybe a stove, but a hot water heater? I use my generator to heat my water for showers. So why do you have a problem with that? There is nothing "amazing" about it. Why take cold showers when you don't have to? Do you need a shower in the first place? Having been through many power outages over the years, some lasting days, I have discovered that a sponge bath is just fine. And soap, water and a wash cloth at any temp works just as well as anything warmer.
I would suggest that if this attitude is typical, people are going soft. Very soft. 
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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 chambercPremium
join:2008-08-05
Irving, TX
·Time Warner Cable
| reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:said by Frink:is there any way I could circumvent that neutral to ground requirement or build a junction to do that in between the gene and the heater?
Now I'll probably get grilled for this, but: Find a 3-prong plug that you can "dispose" of, as in, you don't care. Cut off the cable on that plug while leaving a good 3 to 6 inches of cable still on it. Strip the green and white wires inside that cable, and join them together with a wire nut. (Cut off the "hot" prong and cap the "hot" wire). Then plug that into a free socket on your generator. That will make a "removable" neutral/ground bond. Now if it's "safe", I don't know, I just know it's not the proper way to do it, but I'm guessing you're in an "emergency" situation. It'll work... not the best solution, but "safe enough" for temporary use. |
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| reply to DKS
Some people need the generator for not only a water heater but a water well pump too.
Cold shower when it's below freezing outside and 40 degrees inside is a good way to become sick at a time you may not be able to get medical attention.
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CompTIA Network+ Certified |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
·callwithus
·Callcentric
| reply to DKS
said by DKS:Do you need a shower in the first place? Having been through many power outages over the years, some lasting days, I have discovered that a sponge bath is just fine. And soap, water and a wash cloth at any temp works just as well as anything warmer.
I would suggest that if this attitude is typical, people are going soft. Very soft.
Yeah, and I don't like to go camping, either; I like my modern conveniences. Tell you what: We'll all buy whatever capacity generators we want, to power whatever appliances we want (for me central air is good to have) and we'll leave the discussion about the technical details. Is that OK with you? |
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 FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | Everyone's advice is totally appreciated, and I understand the risks completely. That being said, bathing my 2 & 3 year old this morning in water that would not make them scream made all of us a lot happier... |
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| reply to Frink
I had this exact problem the last few days. Down to the exact same light pattern on my power vent propane heater. Very frustrating. I have a small Honda portable generator 2000W EU model. I put it outside the house on 4 concrete blocks and run a heavy duty extension cord to the things I need to power (usually alternate the fridge, freezer, furnace and hot water heater) . The generator location is right outside a small basement sliding window and just a few feet from where the HWH and furnace are located. My vent on my hot water heater and power for my furnace are each a 3 prong plug into an outlet. I had this done so I could use the hot water heater and furnace in the event of emergency via a genreator. Both are propane so have modest electric needs. I alternate and don't use both at once even though once the motors start up I think I would be fine. My old hot water heater worked fine, but the replacement wouldn't fire up this storm and gave my the ground issue. Ugh...
Here is my stupid Q. My Honda has an external screw connection for a ground to be hooked up. If I sink a copper rod into the ground next to the concrete "pad" I use and hook that up to the ground on the generator and then fire it up, is that safe and would it work with the hot water heater issue? I can leave the rod and blocks "permanently installed" on the side of the house to make it easier if this solution would work.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions. |
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