 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to TheTechGuru
Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater said by TheTechGuru:Some people need the generator for not only a water heater but a water well pump too. Yes, I know. I would include a well pump as "necessary".
Cold shower when it's below freezing outside and 40 degrees inside is a good way to become sick at a time you may not be able to get medical attention.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:said by DKS:Do you need a shower in the first place? Having been through many power outages over the years, some lasting days, I have discovered that a sponge bath is just fine. And soap, water and a wash cloth at any temp works just as well as anything warmer.
I would suggest that if this attitude is typical, people are going soft. Very soft. 
Yeah, and I don't like to go camping, either; I like my modern conveniences. Tell you what: We'll all buy whatever capacity generators we want, to power whatever appliances we want (for me central air is good to have) and we'll leave the discussion about the technical details. Is that OK with you? Capacity is part of the "technical details". There is always a limit to capacity.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
 ·callwithus
·Callcentric
| said by DKS:Capacity is part of the "technical details". There is always a limit to capacity.
But your, or anyone's, opinion of what constitutes a reasonable amount of capacity, or what to power, is not a technical anything. As for limits, some people put in 40KW backups for their house, I doubt that's too limiting for most anything. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Frink
said by Frink:Everyone's advice is totally appreciated, and I understand the risks completely. That being said, bathing my 2 & 3 year old this morning in water that would not make them scream made all of us a lot happier...
Kids are resilient. I would suggest that not wanting to hear your child "scream" is a parental issue, not an issue of basic safety or child care. Besides, unless a child is in diapers or is sick, washing daily isn't an essential. Let them go dirty for a few days as a treat.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:said by DKS:Capacity is part of the "technical details". There is always a limit to capacity.
But your, or anyone's, opinion of what constitutes a reasonable amount of capacity, or what to power, is not a technical anything. As for limits, some people put in 40KW backups for their house, I doubt that's too limiting for most anything. Sure it is. The system is not unlimited. Capacity is limited by technical issues, number of appliances, real need and such tangible things as money. The response to the OP was generally that "What you want to do is unsafe". That's a technical limitation. So Plan B is?
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | reply to GenNewbie
said by GenNewbie :My Honda has an external screw connection for a ground to be hooked up. If I sink a copper rod into the ground next to the concrete "pad" I use and hook that up to the ground on the generator and then fire it up, is that safe and would it work with the hot water heater issue? This whole confusion about grounding, neutral/ground bond, etc etc, reminds me of myself last year when I was setting up my generator (I planned AHEAD  )
I know most of the confusion comes from people thinking that the "ground" protection on extension cords is all about sending current to a rod that's burried deep. But that's incorrect.
In reality, the ground wire in extension cords and receptacles serve as a current return path to the neutral if a hot wire touches a metal casing of an appliance. That metal casing is tied to the ground wire on the extension cord, and shoots the current straight back to the generator (or electrical panel) where it is then returned to the neutral. Basically, it causes a short circuit that trips the breaker (Instead of leaving the metal casing electrically LIVE to shock anyone who touches it).
Floating neutral generators (no connection between the ground wire and the neutral) don't offer any protection through the ground wire on your extension cords. A ground rod won't help.
The screw is connected to the metal chassis of the generator.
The metal chassis of the generator is connected to the ground part of the outlets.
The ground part of the outlets is connected to NOTHING.
I'd really feel more comforable not explaining this, because I'm not an expert, I just understand the principle. I WILL miss important details in my above explanation. All I know is that my generator setup is safely grounded, but I don't know the exceptions when it comes to using extension wires. My setup has the neutral/ground bond at the generator, and my transfer switch breaks the neutral/ground bond from the electrical panel. So my experience doesn't apply well in cases in this thread.
Whizkid, Nunya, in this time of crisis, these people need a crash course  |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
·callwithus
·Callcentric
| reply to GenNewbie
said by GenNewbie :Q. My Honda has an external screw connection for a ground to be hooked up. If I sink a copper rod into the ground next to the concrete "pad" I use and hook that up to the ground on the generator and then fire it up, is that safe and would it work with the hot water heater issue?
No, that wouldn't help. The problem is that, in your house's electric panel the incoming neutral and the ground wires are physically bonded together. The water heater depends on that continuity to work properly.
Some generators, and it sounds like yours is included, do not have that bonding between its neutral and ground. Hence, the water heater won't run.
What is needed is a connection between your generator's neutral wire and its ground wire, best made at the generator. Grounding your generator to a ground rod will mostly serve to reduce static electricity shocks. On the plus side, with the generator's neutral and ground wires bonded a short from the hot wire to a grounded appliances's chassis or frame will trip the generator's circuit breaker, a very good thing.
How to make the bond was covered above, with the mangled cord that alkizmo suggested on page 1 (and Nunya, a knowledgeable electrician ripped him a new one over). Basically, it's connecting the "third prong" of the outlet to the neutral prong of the outlet. That connection need only be done once, at one outlet, on the generator.
My generator already has that bond and it'd be fine with this type of water heater. What it's not so good with is connecting to my main panel, I had to break the bond when doing that so that the only bond would be the one IN the panel (more than one is not a good thing). |
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 Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to DKS
said by DKS:Do you need a shower in the first place? Having been through many power outages over the years, some lasting days, I have discovered that a sponge bath is just fine. And soap, water and a wash cloth at any temp works just as well as anything warmer.
I would suggest that if this attitude is typical, people are going soft. Very soft.
How can you call me soft when I can and will take a hot shower regardless of a power failure. You can live with a dirty body as a sponge bath doesn't cut it or you would never take a shower and just "sponge" off.
Heating the water is no problem for me so why is it a problem for you? |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:said by DKS:Do you need a shower in the first place? Having been through many power outages over the years, some lasting days, I have discovered that a sponge bath is just fine. And soap, water and a wash cloth at any temp works just as well as anything warmer.
I would suggest that if this attitude is typical, people are going soft. Very soft.
Yeah, and I don't like to go camping, either; I like my modern conveniences. Tell you what: We'll all buy whatever capacity generators we want, to power whatever appliances we want (for me central air is good to have) and we'll leave the discussion about the technical details. Is that OK with you? +1  What you said |
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 leiboldPremium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
·SONIC.NET
| reply to GenNewbie
said by GenNewbie :If I sink a copper rod into the ground next to the concrete "pad" I use and hook that up to the ground on the generator and then fire it up, is that safe and would it work with the hot water heater issue? Installing a dedicated ground rod for a portable generator is the safe and correct procedure when using it in a outdoor scenario for which portable generators are generally designed.
When using a portable generator to power appliances inside a home this no longer applies! Having two independent grounding systems is unsafe and for this very reason a code violation. A proper bond between all grounding systems would be required but it is much easier to just connect the generator ground lug to the existing building ground then to install a new grounding rod.
The part about getting your water heater to work has already been answered correctly but I wanted to clarify the safety aspect of grounding the generator (which is distinct from the issue of the neutral - ground bond).
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 FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | reply to DKS
said by DKS:said by Frink:Everyone's advice is totally appreciated, and I understand the risks completely. That being said, bathing my 2 & 3 year old this morning in water that would not make them scream made all of us a lot happier...
Kids are resilient. I would suggest that not wanting to hear your child "scream" is a parental issue, not an issue of basic safety or child care. Besides, unless a child is in diapers or is sick, washing daily isn't an essential. Let them go dirty for a few days as a treat. Damn, I never saw a more appropriate use of a profile pic ... |
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FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ | reply to leibold
Thx, this is a new poster asking about that...my improper ground was because that was the best I could do at Home Depot yesterday, I'll try to find an appropriate ground rod today. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Frink
said by Frink:said by DKS:said by Frink:Everyone's advice is totally appreciated, and I understand the risks completely. That being said, bathing my 2 & 3 year old this morning in water that would not make them scream made all of us a lot happier...
Kids are resilient. I would suggest that not wanting to hear your child "scream" is a parental issue, not an issue of basic safety or child care. Besides, unless a child is in diapers or is sick, washing daily isn't an essential. Let them go dirty for a few days as a treat. Damn, I never saw a more appropriate use of a profile pic ... And how many children do you have? 
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:said by DKS:Do you need a shower in the first place? Having been through many power outages over the years, some lasting days, I have discovered that a sponge bath is just fine. And soap, water and a wash cloth at any temp works just as well as anything warmer.
I would suggest that if this attitude is typical, people are going soft. Very soft.
How can you call me soft when I can and will take a hot shower regardless of a power failure. You can live with a dirty body as a sponge bath doesn't cut it or you would never take a shower and just "sponge" off. Heating the water is no problem for me so why is it a problem for you? "Just because I can..." is one of the most selfish, self-centered ways of thinking in this world. "Just because I can" doesn't mean you should... especially in an emergency situation.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by DKS:"Just because I can..." is one of the most selfish, self-centered ways of thinking in this world. "Just because I can" doesn't mean you should... especially in an emergency situation.
That's too much out of context.
He's not being selfish to use his generator to power his water heater if it doesn't affect others negatively.
It's no more selfish than taking a shower when there's utility power. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to DKS
said by DKS:"Just because I can..." is one of the most selfish, self-centered ways of thinking in this world. "Just because I can" doesn't mean you should... especially in an emergency situation.
What's the emergency situation? It's not like I'm depriving others of limited power. It's my power and how I use it is up to me and hot showers is one of my priorities along with hot food, tv and internet. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | THINK OF THE ETHIOPIANS! |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
·callwithus
·Callcentric
| reply to Frink
said by Frink:Thx, this is a new poster asking about that...my improper ground was because that was the best I could do at Home Depot yesterday, I'll try to find an appropriate ground rod today.
Don't bother if you want to run your hot water heater, it won't make a difference. If you still need to power your hot water heater then the generator's neutral and ground wires need to be connected together. |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8 | reply to Frink
Re: Generator doesn't work with Power Vent Hot Water Heater A lot of very poor advice in this thread. I don't even know where to start, so I'll stop. I hope nobody gets killed. I'm done with this one.
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If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
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| reply to leibold
Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater Thanks for all of the quick replies. Seems like a "known issue" with an easy fix. Here is what my manual says "Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral wire. If the generator is tested by a receptacle tester, it will not show the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle." Also since the new hot water was put in, there is a very thick braided copper wire that jumps the in and out pipe of the water heater. I assume this is helping to ground the entire system????
I want hot water, but I'd rather be smelly than dead so I am still trying to figure out if I am going to get killed if I use the modified ext. cord method and somebody touches the hot water heater, pipes or something else. I have wired circuits before and replaced many electric fixtures and am confident I could created the required cord pretty easily from materials on hand, but my rule with electricity is not to do something if I am uncomfortable doing it and right now that dire warning is scaring me just a little. Can't tell if it a chicken little warning or could actually happen in my situation. I love the internet |
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