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GenNewbie
@rr.com

GenNewbie to leibold

Anon

to leibold

Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater

Thanks for all of the quick replies. Seems like a "known issue" with an easy fix. Here is what my manual says "Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral wire. If the generator is tested by a receptacle tester, it will not show the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle." Also since the new hot water was put in, there is a very thick braided copper wire that jumps the in and out pipe of the water heater. I assume this is helping to ground the entire system????

I want hot water, but I'd rather be smelly than dead so I am still trying to figure out if I am going to get killed if I use the modified ext. cord method and somebody touches the hot water heater, pipes or something else. I have wired circuits before and replaced many electric fixtures and am confident I could created the required cord pretty easily from materials on hand, but my rule with electricity is not to do something if I am uncomfortable doing it and right now that dire warning is scaring me just a little. Can't tell if it a chicken little warning or could actually happen in my situation. I love the internet

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k

Premium Member

If you PROPERLY connect the generator's neutral and ground wires, as described in this post »Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater then you will just make your generator act like your utility, at least as far as neutral/ground goes.

Then, the next thing to do is to connect the generator's ground terminal to your house's ground system. There are specialized parts to do that (a "split nut" on the panel's ground wire is ideal) but, in a pinch, you could connect it to a screw holding the cover plate onto one of your house's grounded outlets. That's NOT a proper ground bond, by any means, but it's better than nothing.

sk1939
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join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to GenNewbie

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to GenNewbie
The extension cord method assumes everything else works properly. Depending on the current draw of your water heater, should something dead short then all that current will be going through the neutral into anything else you have connected to your generator if it is not grounded properly. Hot water is not worth dying for (ignoring the fact that any fire damage caused by this will void your homeowners insurance policy).

The best (and only proper method) is to install an inlet and connect that to a transfer panel, or at the very least install a 30A breaker into your panel and use an interlock kit. Every other method is a hack job and assumes everything works the way it should (sort of like having your pool connected to a non-GFCI protected circuit).

GenNewbie
@rr.com

GenNewbie to garys_2k

Anon

to garys_2k
Could I attach a ground wire from the gen to the thick braided cooper jump wire that is jumping the 2 pipes coming out of the hot water heater? I assume that is a grounding wire? It is accessible and since there is no sheathing and it is right near the same basement window, if it safe, it would be convenient. Thanks!

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

The extension cord method assumes everything else works properly. Depending on the current draw of your water heater, should something dead short then all that current will be going through the neutral into anything else you have connected to your generator if it is not grounded properly.

No, it would trip the generator's breaker.
said by sk1939:

The best (and only proper method) is to install an inlet and connect that to a transfer panel, or at the very least install a 30A breaker into your panel and use an interlock kit. Every other method is a hack job and assumes everything works the way it should (sort of like having your pool connected to a non-GFCI protected circuit).

Generators are rated to work with extension cords, that's why there are outlets on them. Using them is perfectly safe (as long as you don't cut them or trip over them) and consistent with their directions and the NEC.

But, if tying into a house's electrical system then a proper means of connection should be used (such as an inlet) and either an interlock or a transfer switch. In some areas interlocks are not permitted by the AHJ.
garys_2k

garys_2k to GenNewbie

Premium Member

to GenNewbie
said by GenNewbie :

Could I attach a ground wire from the gen to the thick braided cooper jump wire that is jumping the 2 pipes coming out of the hot water heater? I assume that is a grounding wire? It is accessible and since there is no sheathing and it is right near the same basement window, if it safe, it would be convenient. Thanks!

That new jumper was installed to prevent electrically isolating the hot water piping from the cold, that's all. The cold water side SHOULD be bonded to the breaker panel's ground bus, but it may not be unless you can see that it is. Any plastic pipe or dielectric fittings between that water heater jumper and any panel bond will disrupt that connection, too.

I'd stick with an electrical ground, not the plumbing system.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
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Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to garys_2k

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to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:

No, it would trip the generator's breaker.

Yes and no, it can take quite a bit of current for a breaker to trip depending on the type of short. If there is an arc (which typically is the cause of fires next to overloads) then it won't trip at all.
said by garys_2k:


Generators are rated to work with extension cords, that's why there are outlets on them. Using them is perfectly safe (as long as you don't cut them or trip over them) and consistent with their directions and the NEC.

Again yes, but you can't really (even if you could it would be wrong because it's against code) power a water heater off of an extension cord (other than a tankless single sink one perhaps).

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by sk1939:

Again yes, but you can't really (even if you could it would be wrong because it's against code) power a water heater off of an extension cord (other than a tankless single sink one perhaps).

Really? Why and why can't you power a water heater with an extension cord as long as the capacity of the cord and the protections are correct? (Breaker or Fuse size).

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by sk1939:

Again yes, but you can't really (even if you could it would be wrong because it's against code) power a water heater off of an extension cord (other than a tankless single sink one perhaps).

Really? Why and why can't you power a water heater with an extension cord as long as the capacity of the cord and the protections are correct? (Breaker or Fuse size).

Simply because you have to use solid wire (romex or THHN) or stranded THHN to connect hardwired appliances (non-vibration) or using SOOW if it is a piece of vibrating equipment (like a motor).

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by sk1939:

Simply because you have to use solid wire (romex or THHN) or stranded THHN to connect hardwired appliances (non-vibration) or using SOOW if it is a piece of vibrating equipment (like a motor).

Really? In 52 years of electrical work I've never heard that. Looks like my Heatpump is out of compliance and illegal. It has Romex to the pull out disconnect but THHN stranded to the unit which definitely vibrates and has a motor (Compressor).

As far as the water heater I can sit it in the yard and wire it up with a portable cord to the generator and use hoses to connect the water to the house.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by sk1939:

Simply because you have to use solid wire (romex or THHN) or stranded THHN to connect hardwired appliances (non-vibration) or using SOOW if it is a piece of vibrating equipment (like a motor).

Really? In 52 years of electrical work I've never heard that. Looks like my Heatpump is out of compliance and illegal. It has Romex to the pull out disconnect but THHN stranded to the unit which definitely vibrates and has a motor (Compressor).

As far as the water heater I can sit it in the yard and wire it up with a portable cord to the generator and use hoses to connect the water to the house.

Not really, since it's not a requirement to use SOOW cable for vibration-prone devices, just a recommendation to prevent wear on cable. The use of THHN though is a requirement (same requirement where you can't use SJT or lamp cord to wire outlets).

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to sk1939

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to sk1939
said by sk1939:

said by garys_2k:

No, it would trip the generator's breaker.

Yes and no, it can take quite a bit of current for a breaker to trip depending on the type of short. If there is an arc (which typically is the cause of fires next to overloads) then it won't trip at all.

You did say "dead short." If you want to now talk about an overload, that's fine, but I can't see how any fault current would be available elsewhere on the system. The fault current would run back to the source, the generator.
said by sk1939:

said by garys_2k:


Generators are rated to work with extension cords, that's why there are outlets on them. Using them is perfectly safe (as long as you don't cut them or trip over them) and consistent with their directions and the NEC.

Again yes, but you can't really (even if you could it would be wrong because it's against code) power a water heater off of an extension cord (other than a tankless single sink one perhaps).

What code is that? If it's an emergency and the water heater is disconnected from the panel then what code is being violated here?

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

said by garys_2k:

You did say "dead short." If you want to now talk about an overload, that's fine, but I can't see how any fault current would be available elsewhere on the system. The fault current would run back to the source, the generator.

True, if that was the only thing connected to the generator, and that the hot water heater wasn't connected to the house's ground/neutral system via the water pipes.
said by garys_2k:

What code is that? If it's an emergency and the water heater is disconnected from the panel then what code is being violated here?

An emergency is if you need hot water to give birth or treat critical injuries. It is not an emergency to take a warm shower when the power is out for 6 hours. As far as code, using flexible cable for a hardwired appliance. Minor when compared to the neutral/ground issue though when you account for the risk of energizing the neutral/ground.

TheTechGuru
join:2004-03-25
TEXAS

TheTechGuru

Member

said by sk1939:

An emergency is if you need hot water to give birth or treat critical injuries. It is not an emergency to take a warm shower when the power is out for 6 hours.

6 hours? Try 6 to 16 days!!!

Anyway, our 8000 watt john deer ran our 4000 watt normal conventional 30 gallon water heater just fine after Ike.

Thing is, from my understanding, the OP's water heater is gas, but since it's electronically controlled with fan forced exhaust he could run it off a 200watt generator but it has to be wired right.

Modern things sure are a PITA aren't they. That's why I drive 20yr old cars.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

1 edit

garys_2k to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

said by garys_2k:

You did say "dead short." If you want to now talk about an overload, that's fine, but I can't see how any fault current would be available elsewhere on the system. The fault current would run back to the source, the generator.

True, if that was the only thing connected to the generator, and that the hot water heater wasn't connected to the house's ground/neutral system via the water pipes.

??

If there's a fault in the heater that sends current to ground, then yes, then (at least some, possibly all) the fault current may run through the piping system.

If the piping system was bonded to the electrical ground then that current would flow, via that bond, back to the generator. The voltage available on the pipes would be equal to the resistance drop from the heater to the generator, likely under five or so volts.

If the piping system was not bonded to ground, it could raise the pipe's voltage to lethal levels, EXACTLY what would happen if the generator was not being used and the heater was still running on utility power.

The generator's not making the situation worse, nor would it make it better. Either the generator or the utility could cause a fatal shock if the plumbing system wasn't properly bonded to ground.

The lesson here, I think, is fairly simple:
- Some devices require a neutral-ground bonded source
- A generator's ground should be connected, ideally bonded, to the house's ground system
- The plumbing system should be grounded whether or not a generator is in use.

Agree?

Oh, and I agree that having extension cords running around can be hazardous -- they should be secured out of the way of causing tripping or from being damaged.

Edit to fix some grammar issues...

DAJ
@myvzw.com

DAJ

Anon

I have read the 5 pages of responses here and I just wanted to be clear. Assuming one only has a portable generator NOT connected to the house beyond extension cords (no transfer switch) is using the generator's grounding screw connected to a proper ground able to solve the neutral/grounding issue for the hot water? It sounds like the 6" extension cord modification does the trick but I was hoping for something a little more mainstream.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k

Premium Member

said by DAJ :

I have read the 5 pages of responses here and I just wanted to be clear. Assuming one only has a portable generator NOT connected to the house beyond extension cords (no transfer switch) is using the generator's grounding screw connected to a proper ground able to solve the neutral/grounding issue for the hot water? It sounds like the 6" extension cord modification does the trick but I was hoping for something a little more mainstream.

No, connecting the generator's ground terminal to the house's ground system will NOT change the generator's neutral-ground bond type. Definitely DO connect the generator's ground to the house's ground, but using the cord will "fix" that bond issue.

To make the fix more mainstream you'd want to make a permanent connection in the generator's electrical panel, screwing down one of the neutral wires to the generator's frame (which should already be connected to its outlets' ground wires).

TheTechGuru
join:2004-03-25
TEXAS

TheTechGuru

Member

said by garys_2k:

No, connecting the generator's ground terminal to the house's ground system will NOT change the generator's neutral-ground bond type. Definitely DO connect the generator's ground to the house's ground, but using the cord will "fix" that bond issue.

Connecting BOTH the common AND ground from the generator to the common/ground rail in the main circuit panel of the house will fix the problem and while one is in there might as well connect the hot(s) from the generator to the appropriate rails in there. Just turn off the main so you don't back feed.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

1 edit

alkizmo to DAJ

Member

to DAJ
said by DAJ :

It sounds like the 6" extension cord modification does the trick but I was hoping for something a little more mainstream.

The proper way is to open up the receptacles panel on the generator and put a jumper wire behind the breakers between the neutral and ground using a 10AWG copper wire on the biggest lugs you can find that are linked to neutral and ground.

However, it can be tricky to open up that panel. Mine was sealed pretty tight, and I didn't have a lot of wire lenght to pull out the panel without disconnecting it completely from the generator (Which would have been very tricky as well).

Here's what I did for my mainstream setup:

My transfer switch handles the hot AND the neutral, so when I switch to the generator, the N/G bond in my electrical panel is no longer in the mix.

My generator's ground is still linked to the house ground through a #6 bare copper. That wire goes from the generator's ground lug and is tied by a split bolt to the house's ground conductor (Another #6 bare copper that is tied to my cold water copper pipe).

So with the N/G bond from the electrical panel broken because the transfer switch cuts the neutral off, I had to make a N/G bond at the generator. What I did is jump the neutral and ground from the inside of the L5-20P (plug) that connects to the generator to feed my transfer switch.

That way, when I connect my generator to the house transfer switch, the bond is created. When I disconnect the generator from the house, the bond is broken. No permanent modifications need to be done/undone on the generator itself.

Is it proper? Yup. The N/G bond is as close to the source (Generator) as it needs to be. The N/G bond cannot be removed without disconnecting the generator from the house. The ground bare copper wire still remains connected to the house ground, but that is of no impact, because there is no more bond between ground/neutral. It just helps avoiding static build up on the generator chassis if it is running but not connected to the house.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to TheTechGuru

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to TheTechGuru
said by TheTechGuru:

said by garys_2k:

No, connecting the generator's ground terminal to the house's ground system will NOT change the generator's neutral-ground bond type. Definitely DO connect the generator's ground to the house's ground, but using the cord will "fix" that bond issue.

Connecting BOTH the common AND ground from the generator to the common/ground rail in the main circuit panel of the house will fix the problem and while one is in there might as well connect the hot(s) from the generator to the appropriate rails in there. Just turn off the main so you don't back feed.

That's where we part ways. Connecting the generator's neutral and ground to the panel's common rail is fine, but tying the generator's hots to the panel's hot rails and turning off the main is NOT what I'd do.

Some panels have more than one "main" (six lever rule), no wires should connect directly to the rails (should go through a breaker) and a physical method of preventing both the main(s) and the generator's feed breaker from both connecting to the hot rails at the same time should be used, even for temporary or emergency use.

Since the more recent questions are regarding this one use (hot water heater that needs its power source to have N-G bond) then I'd leave the panel closed and do my wiring at the heater PLUS the ground line from the generator's ground terminal to the electrical system's ground.

GenNewbie
@rr.com

GenNewbie to garys_2k

Anon

to garys_2k
Thanks for all of the replies. Here is what I have and what I plan to do. My house is 10 years old so has a relatively modern electric system. There is no PEX or plastic supply lines in the water supply system, it is 100% copper pipe. My main water supply line comes in near the main 200 amp electric panel and is grounded via a thick unsheathed cooper wire. I can see that ground wire running between the water supply and service panel, they are only about 6 feet away from each other. I can also see a clear cooper run of pipe that goes from that area, across the basement to supply cold water to my propane hot water heater. The hot water heater has the same thick braided copper wire jumping hot and cold pipe on the water heater. Based on this I ASSUME that the jumper is a proper ground as I can see the clear, uninterupted run of cooper pipe, the hook up to the main panel and the jumper on the water heater.

If I make-up the modified extension cord (thanks for the picture it confirmed what I needed to do!) and tie the generator ground into the exposed jumper/ground on the water heater (which I truly believe to be 100% grounded based on the above), it is as safe as it can get?
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym to sk1939

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to sk1939
said by sk1939:

Again yes, but you can't really (even if you could it would be wrong because it's against code) power a water heater off of an extension cord (other than a tankless single sink one perhaps).

Wanna bet?

My tankless whole house would work great on an extension cord!

But I get your point.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to GenNewbie

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to GenNewbie
said by GenNewbie :

Thanks for all of the replies. Here is what I have and what I plan to do. My house is 10 years old so has a relatively modern electric system. There is no PEX or plastic supply lines in the water supply system, it is 100% copper pipe. My main water supply line comes in near the main 200 amp electric panel and is grounded via a thick unsheathed cooper wire. I can see that ground wire running between the water supply and service panel, they are only about 6 feet away from each other. I can also see a clear cooper run of pipe that goes from that area, across the basement to supply cold water to my propane hot water heater. The hot water heater has the same thick braided copper wire jumping hot and cold pipe on the water heater. Based on this I ASSUME that the jumper is a proper ground as I can see the clear, uninterupted run of cooper pipe, the hook up to the main panel and the jumper on the water heater.

If I make-up the modified extension cord (thanks for the picture it confirmed what I needed to do!) and tie the generator ground into the exposed jumper/ground on the water heater (which I truly believe to be 100% grounded based on the above), it is as safe as it can get?

Yes, then with the electrical-plumbing ground bond verified (and be REALLY sure) then grounding to the jumper between the hot and cold pipes ought to be alright, but it would be BETTER if you bonded it to the uninsulated line running from the panel to the piping. Can you do that?

GenNewbie
@rr.com

GenNewbie

Anon

The issue is that the electrical service and panel and water supply come in one side of the house and the furnace and hot water heater are on the opposite side near the buried propane tank, so I'd either have to run a 45 foot extension cord or 45 foot ground wire or somehow try to split the difference. By using the jumper "ground" on the HW heater I can use a 10 foot extension cord and ground wire and be on the side of the house out of the way (north side) and right outside one of those small basement sliding windows. It is very convenient to hook it up and keeps the fumes and noise away from windows and doors and length of runs for extension cord and ground wire down, which I understand to be helpful and safer?

I am very confident but not 100% sure the cooper is continuous. There is one short run of about 3 feet that I can't see but they would have had to piece something in and mixed copper and plastic which would make no sense and probably not up to code. Of course some things I do make no sense.

I gather the bare #6 copper is the ground wire of choice? Is there a suitable insulated ground wire that is acceptable. I think I've seen # 10 at Home Depot but not # 8 or #6 but I am not sure. Is the #10 OK? Thanks!!!

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by sk1939:

Some do, some don't, it depends highly on the transfer panel so you can't generalize. Interlock kits for example have a different approach.

I didn't generalize, you did. You said the NG bond cannot be at the generator when they are connected to a transfer switch. They certainly can with certain transfer switches.
said by sk1939:

If you know it's a kludge, why would you suggest it? It's like telling a kid that it's bad to have guns around other people, but go ahead and take it to school.

Frink isn't a kid, and he was given warnings.
It's more like giving a gun to an adult and telling him to avoid shooting with it, but if he has to then he should be very careful.

He did do a very good job with the NG bond trick
said by sk1939:

Yes, but the point of that is what when you need the bond to be at the panel once power is restored? That just creates more work for yourself.

I doubt you understand how a transfer switch with neutral switching works.
said by GenNewbie :

I gather the bare #6 copper is the ground wire of choice? Is there a suitable insulated ground wire that is acceptable. I think I've seen # 10 at Home Depot but not # 8 or #6 but I am not sure. Is the #10 OK? Thanks!!!

Im not sure what you're trying to do, but for grounding a 30A generator (7200W or lower), then #10 is ok. Buy it green colored just so the color coding matches its purpose.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
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sk1939

Premium Member

said by alkizmo:

"I didn't generalize, you did. You said the NG bond cannot be at the generator when they are connected to a transfer switch. They certainly can with certain transfer switches."

Sure they can be bonded at the transfer switch, but then it's classified under "Separately Derived Power Generation" in the NEC when you do that. Neutral switching is only required if the grounds are tied together, to avoid having the neutral above ground potential.

You still have to bond the ground and neutral at only one place.
said by alkizmo:

I doubt you understand how a transfer switch with neutral switching works.

I know exactly how a transfer switch with neutral switching works, and not all transfer switches work that way.

Don't ask to "learn" and for people to explain things when all you do is shoot down things that go against your preconcieved notions and ideas. It's similar to a child asking "why" to everything, that's just not how it's done is the simplest explanation.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by sk1939:

Sure they can be bonded at the transfer switch, but then it's classified under "Separately Derived Power Generation" in the NEC when you do that.

Neutral switching is only required if the grounds are tied together, to avoid having the neutral above ground potential.

Yes you're right that it is classified as a Separately Derived system, but you're wrong about why neutral switching is required.

In a non-neutral-switching transfer switch, you still have to join the generator's ground to the house's ground.

You still have to bond the ground and neutral at only one place.

Neutral switching only serves to disconnect the N/G bond from the main panel when the generator already has a N/G bond.
said by sk1939:

I know exactly how a transfer switch with neutral switching works, and not all transfer switches work that way.

I know, maybe I should have said "SOME" transfer switches switch neutral, but you did say this...
said by sk1939:

As far as the N/G bond, it's not at the generator with a transfer switch, it's bonded at the panel.

You made it sound like N/G bond is never at the generator when connected to a transfer switch.
said by sk1939:

Don't ask to "learn" and for people to explain things when all you do is shoot down things that go against your preconcieved notions and ideas. It's similar to a child asking "why" to everything, that's just not how it's done is the simplest explanation.

I know plenty to understand the complicated explanation.
I shot down explanations that weren't correct, such as:

- N/G bond creates a potential path to ground which is more dangerous than with house wiring (That is not true, it is not more dangerous, it is AS dangerous).

- A short to grounded items such as copper pipes will not trip the breaker (That is not unique to generators with N/G bond, house wiring works like that as well).

My issue is that you guys made it sound like its riskier than if you used a transfer switch. A transfer switch simply prevents backfeeding. Grounding and neutral bonding can be done properly without the need for a transfer switch, you simply don't connect the hot to the house's panel's hot.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to GenNewbie

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to GenNewbie
said by GenNewbie :

The issue is that the electrical service and panel and water supply come in one side of the house and the furnace and hot water heater are on the opposite side near the buried propane tank, so I'd either have to run a 45 foot extension cord or 45 foot ground wire or somehow try to split the difference. By using the jumper "ground" on the HW heater I can use a 10 foot extension cord and ground wire and be on the side of the house out of the way (north side) and right outside one of those small basement sliding windows. It is very convenient to hook it up and keeps the fumes and noise away from windows and doors and length of runs for extension cord and ground wire down, which I understand to be helpful and safer?

I am very confident but not 100% sure the cooper is continuous. There is one short run of about 3 feet that I can't see but they would have had to piece something in and mixed copper and plastic which would make no sense and probably not up to code. Of course some things I do make no sense.

I gather the bare #6 copper is the ground wire of choice? Is there a suitable insulated ground wire that is acceptable. I think I've seen # 10 at Home Depot but not # 8 or #6 but I am not sure. Is the #10 OK? Thanks!!!

Number 10 is fine for your generator and it sounds very much like the water pipe jumper is a solid ground, but if I had my druthers I'd put the ground onto the panel's ground wire. Can you get a longer piece of wire?

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by garys_2k:

but if I had my druthers I'd put the ground onto the panel's ground wire. Can you get a longer piece of wire?

It depends what is easier/closer.
In my case, I tied my generator's grounding conductor (The one that attaches to the generator chassis) to the copper wire that exited my main panel and went to the copper pipe, using a split bolt.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:

Neutral switching only serves to disconnect the N/G bond from the main panel when the generator already has a N/G bond.

Again, depends on your transfer panel. Some only flip between
main and generator lines, rather than in between each circuit, like this one.

»www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N ··· ApBhrY4Y
said by alkizmo:

You made it sound like N/G bond is never at the generator when connected to a transfer switch.

Perhaps I should have clarified that in general it is at the panel, but it may be at the tranfer switch depending on your switch. For 95% of homes it is still at the panel.
said by alkizmo:

My issue is that you guys made it sound like its riskier than if you used a transfer switch. A transfer switch simply prevents backfeeding. Grounding and neutral bonding can be done properly without the need for a transfer switch, you simply don't connect the hot to the house's panel's hot.

My issue isn't with the use of a transfer switch, it's with the half-assed neutral-ground solution you suggested. That is what is dangerous for a variety of reasons. Yes it can be done without a transfer switch, but the majority of people aren't going to know how and will do it wrong, the extension cord plug trick included.
said by alkizmo:

I shot down explanations that weren't correct, such as:

- A short to grounded items such as copper pipes will not trip the breaker (That is not unique to generators with N/G bond, house wiring works like that as well).

Never said it was, don't fill in the spaces yourself.
said by alkizmo:

Grounding and neutral bonding can be done properly without the need for a transfer switch, you simply don't connect the hot to the house's panel's hot.

The point of that is what exactly then? Some generators provide the ability on the genset itself to bond the neutral to ground. It dosen't really matter if you use an extension cord with a GFCI, or are powering things that don't have a high risk of shock, like a lamp. It's still important to have a ground though, via ground rod.