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Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL

Natural Gas??

Have these people not heard of natural gas generators???
Why would anyone waste time with diesel generators when have unlimited natural gas piped right into your building already.


PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD
said by Oh_No:

Have these people not heard of natural gas generators???
Why would anyone waste time with diesel generators when have unlimited natural gas piped right into your building already.

Not everyone has Natural Gas available to them. In example, my home is heated by an oil burner because there are no gas lines to my neighborhood.


WiFiguru
To infinity... and beyond
Premium
join:2005-06-21
Irvine, CA
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
reply to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

Have these people not heard of natural gas generators???
Why would anyone waste time with diesel generators when have unlimited natural gas piped right into your building already.

Usually fuel volume consumption superceeds what natural gas can deliver.

Not to mention, I am sure they turned off/disabled natural gas in the evacuation zone.

Diesel can be trucked in. Natural gas can too (CNG), but it is less available.

Also, Natural gas is a storage risk (high pressure). Diesel isn't as flammable while being stored.

We're talking megawatt level here versus a few thousand watts for a house.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·AT&T Midwest
·Time Warner Cable
reply to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

Have these people not heard of natural gas generators???
Why would anyone waste time with diesel generators when have unlimited natural gas piped right into your building already.

During a gas leak emergency, the fire department will sometimes order the power and the gas turned off. I have personal experience with this. Diesel is usually specified by the people responsible for power, if somebody else isn't prohibiting it!

What I recall from 75 Broad St. was that it was an unusual setup for the company I worked for. I believe they had a separate colocation area for backup generators; I'm guessing that was on the 17th floor. There may have been a common metered diesel supply as well. At any rate, nobody in power engineering was comfortable with the situation. But, if you want to get in certain pieces of real estate for peering, you sometimes have to make compromises.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
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Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
reply to WiFiguru
said by WiFiguru:

said by Oh_No:

Have these people not heard of natural gas generators???
Why would anyone waste time with diesel generators when have unlimited natural gas piped right into your building already.

Usually fuel volume consumption superceeds what natural gas can deliver.

Not to mention, I am sure they turned off/disabled natural gas in the evacuation zone.

Diesel can be trucked in. Natural gas can too (CNG), but it is less available.

Also, Natural gas is a storage risk (high pressure). Diesel isn't as flammable while being stored.

We're talking megawatt level here versus a few thousand watts for a house.

There is no way they would turn off the natural gas because of flooding and high winds. It was a hurricane not an earthquake.
You dont store natural gas, it is piped in when you are in populated areas.
That is the beauty of natural gas being piped in. When you are not in an earthquake zone it never has to be turned off because of flooding.

I am sure natural gas can provide more fuel faster than running buckets of diesel up 17 flights of stairs.
I just never heard of running a diesel generator on the 17th floor of a building.
Seems like very poor planning.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to Oh_No
quote:
There is no way they would turn off the natural gas because of flooding and high winds. It was a hurricane not an earthquake.
You dont store natural gas, it is piped in when you are in populated areas.
That is the beauty of natural gas being piped in. When you are not in an earthquake zone it never has to be turned off because of flooding.
Well, they can be affected as the pumping station that they use to keep the gas compressed has to get its power from somewhere. Often they are above ground. And if that somewhere is underwater or has an issue (power) the gas flow can get interrupted.

During Sandy I got a few e-mails from our gas supplier about possible outages.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
said by itguy05:

quote:
There is no way they would turn off the natural gas because of flooding and high winds. It was a hurricane not an earthquake.
You dont store natural gas, it is piped in when you are in populated areas.
That is the beauty of natural gas being piped in. When you are not in an earthquake zone it never has to be turned off because of flooding.
Well, they can be affected as the pumping station that they use to keep the gas compressed has to get its power from somewhere. Often they are above ground. And if that somewhere is underwater or has an issue (power) the gas flow can get interrupted.

In essence, modified jet engines (turbines) are used as compressors to pump the natural gas. The bleed natural gas as fuel from the pipeline, but they still need combustion air ......... which can be pretty hard to find under 10' of water.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

There is no way they would turn off the natural gas because of flooding and high winds. It was a hurricane not an earthquake.
You dont store natural gas, it is piped in when you are in populated areas.
That is the beauty of natural gas being piped in. When you are not in an earthquake zone it never has to be turned off because of flooding.

I am sure natural gas can provide more fuel faster than running buckets of diesel up 17 flights of stairs.
I just never heard of running a diesel generator on the 17th floor of a building.
Seems like very poor planning.

if its an evac area and Bloomberg/FDNY tells ConEd to kill the gas they will kill the gas.

The main thing is that NYC may not allow them to store the main diesel supply on the upper floors. Or they moved into an existing building which did not have the structural requirements to store tens of thousands of gallons of diesel above basement level.

or you know people can live without the data for a few days, its not like the regional customer base could access it anyway with the Verizon COs being flooded and as such shutting down the data links to the island.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

AckAck

join:2011-06-02
reply to Oh_No
First National Bank of Omaha has been doing it since 1999.
»www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenand···ha10.pdf


FiberGEner

@windomnet.com
reply to Oh_No
Natural Gas is not effecient for a generator. Also Natural gas does go out.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
reply to itguy05
said by itguy05:

quote:
There is no way they would turn off the natural gas because of flooding and high winds. It was a hurricane not an earthquake.
You dont store natural gas, it is piped in when you are in populated areas.
That is the beauty of natural gas being piped in. When you are not in an earthquake zone it never has to be turned off because of flooding.
Well, they can be affected as the pumping station that they use to keep the gas compressed has to get its power from somewhere. Often they are above ground. And if that somewhere is underwater or has an issue (power) the gas flow can get interrupted.

During Sandy I got a few e-mails from our gas supplier about possible outages.

Lol, the pumping stations run off the natural gas in the pipeline. No electricity required.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
reply to Kearnstd
said by Kearnstd:

said by Oh_No:

There is no way they would turn off the natural gas because of flooding and high winds. It was a hurricane not an earthquake.
You dont store natural gas, it is piped in when you are in populated areas.
That is the beauty of natural gas being piped in. When you are not in an earthquake zone it never has to be turned off because of flooding.

I am sure natural gas can provide more fuel faster than running buckets of diesel up 17 flights of stairs.
I just never heard of running a diesel generator on the 17th floor of a building.
Seems like very poor planning.

if its an evac area and Bloomberg/FDNY tells ConEd to kill the gas they will kill the gas.

The main thing is that NYC may not allow them to store the main diesel supply on the upper floors. Or they moved into an existing building which did not have the structural requirements to store tens of thousands of gallons of diesel above basement level.

or you know people can live without the data for a few days, its not like the regional customer base could access it anyway with the Verizon COs being flooded and as such shutting down the data links to the island.

Again no engineer is going to recommend to turn of natural gas from flooding so no mayor is just going to blindly tell coned to kill service and piss off all the smart people using nat gas generators.
Unless there are earthquakes in new york or bombs you dont ever have to worry about disruption to the natural gas. This is why people use natural gas generators.

Pumping stations would have a snorkel on their compressors so unless there was a some kind of extreme flooding it would be fine.

As for diesel fuel, I would never allow diesel fuel tanks inside of a building. That is irresponsible and unsafe.

The data company posting on the internet how they had workers transfer diesel in open buckets up 17 flights of stairs freely gave OSHA all they needed to be fined. I would be suprised if they dont get fined.

In my opinion anyone that uses TINBIDs are crazy.
The pros and cons of natural gas make it a much better choice than the pros and cons of diesel when you have a natural gas utility line.
Natural gas only is not an option in earthquake zones.


KLH

join:2001-09-24
Vincennes, IN
reply to Oh_No
NG does get shut off during emergencies, including flooding and hurricanes. Just ask the people in New Jersey who are without NG due to "thousands of leaks in the pipeline"
»www.cnbc.com/id/49646349
--
Fiber to the Home, gotta love it!


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL

1 edit
Natural gas pipes should never leak because of flooding and hurricanes. They are underground. That makes no sense.

When Ike hit houston those with nat gas generators were living comfortably in air conditioning the entire time.

That article tells me NJ utilities severely let their pipeline fall apart before the tropical storm hit as breaks and flares should never happen because of flooding and winds.
NJ customers need to ask what the utility has been spending their money on.

One main benefit of natural gas is its reliability in disasters.
Natural gas is a long term power outage solution.
Diesel is a short term solution as this data company has shown. It is also dangerous and irresponsible to store in a building.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
"should", should goes to hell in a handbasket as soon as major event takes place. Natural gas does have it's advantages, but as people have shown you, it has to be shut off for safety reasons, not necessarily breaks.

Every devices that uses gas has a pilot light. What happens to that pilot light when it gets wet from flooding? The light goes out, the gas continues to flow, filling the house/building whatever.

simple enough, turn off the gas to the house. Right, but the curb stops are under water and there are 100's of houses on the block. Much simpler and quicker to turn off gas to the neighborhood.

As for NG being safer in a building than Diesel, I'd much rather have an open can of diesel in a room than I would NG. I'd much rather have a diesel leak than an NG leak!


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
Pilot lights have thermocouples that close the line when the light goes out.
It would be irresponsible to turn of natural gas lines during flooding/power outages.

I would not want any fuel inside of a building or house regardless if it is diesel or whatever.


KLH

join:2001-09-24
Vincennes, IN
NG gets shut off all the time during disasters, and is NOT a reliable source during a disaster.
--
Fiber to the Home, gotta love it!

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
reply to Oh_No
Have you seen the damage? Uprooted trees can damage lines. Homes shifting of their foundations can damage lines. Cars floating around to the various above ground stations can break lines in the areas they surface.

If NG was SOOOO reliable, the power companies huge backup generators would use NG instead of diesel.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
It is reliable and that is why smart people use natural gas.

Flooding and winds do not disturb the underground lines.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
said by Oh_No:

It is reliable and that is why smart people use natural gas.

Flooding and winds do not disturb the underground lines.

Did you not just read my last post that you replied to? I just listed off a small number of things that can cause NG to be disrupted. Just because they are underground doesn't mean that they are immune to natural disasters (including flooding and wind).

The county where I live had a large blow-down last year from straight line winds, and all underground services had interruptions of one kind or another. Uprooted trees broke water lines, fiber/copper telecommunications networks, caused power outages etc, and yes, some NG was interrupted too. If a house gets damaged and shifted off it's foundation, the NG will leak and the utility will have to shut it off.

I challenge you to give us some examples of megawatt sized generators which run off of natural gas and power entire highrises. Every major generator that I've seen uses diesel because it can be stored locally, isn't highly flammable, and doesn't require high pressure storage.

I think it is time for you to get over this notion that NG is immune to any sort of flooding or wind disaster. It simply isn't true, and I've witnessed it with my own eyes which was caused from a much smaller disaster than a hurricane.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
Only a moron would store diesel inside a high rise.

The underground pipes for NG are protected from every disaster except an earthquake. That is the whole point of getting a NG generator.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
said by Oh_No:

Only a moron would store diesel inside a high rise.

Well there are a lot of morons out there then. Diesel is EXTREMELY safe to store and it is quite common practice to have an on-site storage tank somewhere for the generators.

said by Oh_No:

The underground pipes for NG are protected from every disaster except an earthquake. That is the whole point of getting a NG generator.

It's becoming apparent that any attempts at trying to reason with you are about as productive as reasoning with a brick wall, but they are not 100% protected from everything but an earthquake. It simply isn't true no matter how many times you repeat yourself. Yes, they have a very low exposure to damage, but they CAN still be damaged.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
I try to reason with you and you act like a brick wall with your diesel stubbornness.
Diesel is not safe at all inside of a building. If you have a fire then everyone is screwed.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
A NG leak and explosion/fire is possible too. I'm not saying that Diesel is perfect, just that it is the "standard" for large backup generators such as the ones a datacenter would use and that NG isn't perfect either. They both have their ups and downs and both are prone to possible issues during a disaster. As far as I'm concerned, neither are "safe" inside a building during a leak or fire.