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Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Thunder Bay, ON

[Serious] Statists, be proud! re: Ashley Smith

»www.thestar.com/news/gta/article···revealed

“How can it get worse?”

Ashley Smith asks the question in a childlike moan.

Aboard a small government plane, 33,000 feet in the air somewhere between Saskatoon and Montreal, the teen inmate can’t fathom a fate worse than what has just befallen her in a period of six minutes.

Her forearms are shackled to the seat’s armrests, a hood of black netting and canvas is pulled over her head of long, wavy brown hair and tied around her neck. The plane’s co-pilot, a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, has just bound her wrists together with duct tape, restricting her as though in a straitjacket. And she is sitting in her own feces.

But it does get worse.

Its gets much worse...

Three months later, no fewer than seven prison staff dressed in black helmets, gas masks and hazmat-type suits will pin her limp body to a metal gurney. Two will crouch on her legs to hold down her hips while others press a clear plastic riot shield to her belly. They will inject her with anti-psychotic drugs.

“You have to co-operate,” a woman identified on prison surveillance videos as Nurse Melanie tells a docile Smith.

“You have no choice.”

And even more perverse:

Federal prison lawyers argued a motion on Wednesday asking the coroner to dramatically narrow the inquest’s scope to examine only the final seven days of her life in custody.

Anything more, said Correctional Service lawyer Nancy Noble, would turn the inquest into a “full-blown inquiry into the operations and management of Correctional Service Canada, which is not permitted.”

Wouldn't want daylight shone on what was OUR government inflicting torture one of its distressed citizens now would they?

Keep reading, this is a bomb shell and ought to inspire revulsion in what big government is capable of when it utterly fails and runs amok.
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
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I've been following this for a while now. Can't even put it into words, and I'm so disturbed by this whole thing that I can't even watch the videos without either immediately turning them off or leaving the room. It's a situation disgusting that it is beneath a human being to fathom, and I hope the bastards who were involved in this are thrown in jail.

People will go on and on and on about a girl who offs themselves after some melodramatic video on Youtube because they can't turn off Facebook, but god forbid we give a damn when a girl that same age has the same thing happen by the people who are supposed to help her. The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.



Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Thunder Bay, ON
reply to Markie

And every single 'helper' was collecting a government paycheck.
--
»libertarian.on.ca/



Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Thunder Bay, ON
reply to Markie

God bless the pre-moderated CBC comments section:

The video is meant to horrify but that doesn't mean what was being done to the girl wasn't done for good reason.

I saw what appears, at first blush, to be an abuse of the system, but that's the beauty of our judicial system, one has the opportunity to hear both sides of the story before making a judgement and here we're just seeing/reading one side of the issue.

Its a beauty all right!
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

EdmundGerber

join:2010-01-04
kudos:1

said by DKS:

said by Gone:

The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.

You think funding is the problem??? Explain the need for 6 stormtroopers in full riot gear for one teen. At 5:30 AM. I bet everyone one of those SOB's is earning nearly 6 figures. Funding excuse be damned!

This goes all the way to the top, and the attitude of our current government. I fucking weep for what's become of Canada!


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to Markie

quote:
She spent her last year in solitary confinement, where she received little treatment for her mental illness. Guards looked on as she killed herself following years of self-harm.

Read more: »www.ctvnews.ca/canada/troubling-···Ay7ktrIU
And what exactly did they think the likeliest outcome was going to be? A cure? Even my uneducated mind can tell they set this girl up to kill herself. The people involved should be brought up on charges. This is a disgusting way to treat another human being.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to EdmundGerber

said by EdmundGerber:

said by DKS:

said by Gone:

The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.

You think funding is the problem??? Explain the need for 6 stormtroopers in full riot gear for one teen. At 5:30 AM. I bet everyone one of those SOB's is earning nearly 6 figures. Funding excuse be damned!

This goes all the way to the top, and the attitude of our current government. I fucking weep for what's become of Canada!

You really should make an effort to become informed. I work in the health care and corrections system as part of my job and do volunteer work in the mental health system. I have a child very similar to Ashley, although, fortunately, the helping circle has prevented a similar outcome so far.

Learn some facts. Better yet, stop crying "The Horror! The Horror!" and start advocating with our politicians for change. Money IS the issue.

Mental health is the poorest relative in the health care system. Workers in the mental health system are largely non-unionized and have had their salaries frozen for twelve of the last fifteen years. They have no pensions and few benefits. They earn up to 40% less than those in the hospital system.

Sunshine list? Don't make me laugh. Outside of psychiatrists and a few administrators, there are damned few there. Of all the mental health workers in our area (there are about 90 in the outpatient sector) exactly one is on the Sunshine List and she works 80 hours a week.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to shaner

said by shaner:


And what exactly did they think the likeliest outcome was going to be? A cure? Even my uneducated mind can tell they set this girl up to kill herself. The people involved should be brought up on charges. This is a disgusting way to treat another human being.

Then advocate for change. Demand better. Demand better funding. Demand early interventions. Demand alcohol harm reduction strategies (you were aware that a huge number of people in the corrections system are diagnosed with FASD and self-medicate?).
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Sunshine list? Don't make me laugh. Outside of psychiatrists and a few administrators, there are damned few there. Of all the mental health workers in our area (there are about 90 in the outpatient sector) exactly one is on the Sunshine List and she works 80 hours a week.

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. The guards in the video could very well be on the Sunshine List, which is the wrong place to spend the money. In other words, the money is there, it's just allocated to the wrong place.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

2 recommendations

reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Then advocate for change. Demand better. Demand better funding. Demand early interventions. Demand alcohol harm reduction strategies (you were aware that a huge number of people in the corrections system are diagnosed with FASD and self-medicate?).

I have and I will continue to do so. Mental Health is woefully underfunded, misunderstood, and ridiculously ignored. That has to change. But these thugs should still be brought up on charges. Prisoner or not, that video shows outright abuse and should be directly linked as a cause in her death.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:4
reply to Markie

Im afraid to watch based on what I have read here. Typical Canadian response......... dont fix problems just clean up the messes. Resources are spent on cleanup not prevention. From obesity to mental health, to a gazillion other issues. Oh wait, lets do expensive studies that make recommendations that are not followed.



HRMmmm

@videotron.ca
reply to Markie

said by Markie:

God bless the pre-moderated CBC comments section:

The video is meant to horrify but that doesn't mean what was being done to the girl wasn't done for good reason.

I saw what appears, at first blush, to be an abuse of the system, but that's the beauty of our judicial system, one has the opportunity to hear both sides of the story before making a judgement and here we're just seeing/reading one side of the issue.

Its a beauty all right!

aaah. But you see in some peoples eyes she is a punk.

What was the original story here? She tossed eggs or rocks at a mailman, judge gave her 3 months in a juvi place, and for bad behavior they just kept increasing her time and then moved her around in real jails and ended up tossing her in a windowless isolation cell for months to rot?

You see, to some people here she got what she deserved because.. you know... she's a punk.

Two ways of looking at everything, if one really wants to go there.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

said by DKS:

Sunshine list? Don't make me laugh. Outside of psychiatrists and a few administrators, there are damned few there. Of all the mental health workers in our area (there are about 90 in the outpatient sector) exactly one is on the Sunshine List and she works 80 hours a week.

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. The guards in the video could very well be on the Sunshine List, which is the wrong place to spend the money. In other words, the money is there, it's just allocated to the wrong place.

No, I understand better than you can imagine. No one has evidence or proof of any guard there being on any Sunshine List. Suggesting that is nothing more than unproductive, idle speculation. However, there is evidence of chronic under-funding of the mental health system.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

said by DKS:

Then advocate for change. Demand better. Demand better funding. Demand early interventions. Demand alcohol harm reduction strategies (you were aware that a huge number of people in the corrections system are diagnosed with FASD and self-medicate?).

I have and I will continue to do so. Mental Health is woefully underfunded, misunderstood, and ridiculously ignored. That has to change. But these thugs should still be brought up on charges. Prisoner or not, that video shows outright abuse and should be directly linked as a cause in her death.

That is the purpose of the inquest.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.

While you were able to better explain why something like this happened, the situation doesn't sicken me any less.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Markie

said by Gone:

People will go on and on and on about a girl who offs themselves after some melodramatic video on Youtube because they can't turn off Facebook, but god forbid we give a damn when a girl that same age has the same thing happen by the people who are supposed to help her. The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

So this thread is concerning a woman that was tortured by our government? There's no information in this thread other than snippets of something that sounds like it comes from a horror movie concerning actions committed against an innocent woman?

However I see the word 'inmate' in the quotes above...

Does anyone care to add some context to this story for those of us that have no idea who this Ashley girl is?


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

If you know nothing about the situation or who this Ashley Girl is, urbanruot, here's a tip: »lmgtfy.com/?q=Ashley+Smith

I would argue that considering the mental health issues this woman had and the fact that she was put into a system she should have never been put into and that same system is woefully inadequate to handle those issues, the way she was treated was torture that ultimately lead to her death. Completely inexcusable. She deserved better, and I have been heartbroken by this entire story from the very beginning.


peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Ormond Beach, FL
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis.

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

There are plenty of examples through history from the Stanford Prison Experiment to Auschwitz and to give some of these people a pass because of systemic funding problems is shameful.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by peterboro:

said by DKS:

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis.

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

There are plenty of examples through history from the Stanford Prison Experiment to Auschwitz and to give some of these people a pass because of systemic funding problems is shameful.

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to peterboro

said by peterboro:

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

I tend to agree with this. All levels need to be held accountable as part of the process to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Ormond Beach, FL
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.

said by DKS:

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.

I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by peterboro:

said by DKS:

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.

I am well aware of the experiments you cite. Indeed, there is recent, similar research on soldiers committing atrocities during war. The point is, however, marginal.

said by DKS:

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.

I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.

I did not say that. I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to Markie

As a society, we've been struggling with how to deal with mental health issues for centuries. They still haven't come up with a decent solution. It's really sad.

Most mental health cases that cause a person to commit crimes result in that person ending up in the prison system, where they receive no treatment for their problems.
--
Tom



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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Reviews:
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said by TLS2000:

Most mental health cases that cause a person to commit crimes result in that person ending up in the prison system, where they receive no treatment for their problems.

She most likely should have never been in there to begin with. It was a case of one institution pawning her off to another because no one was willing or able to adequately deal with her.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
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Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to TLS2000

said by TLS2000:

Most mental health cases that cause a person to commit crimes result in that person ending up in the prison system, where they receive no treatment for their problems.

That's exactly the problem. Even if not in jail, at least with a criminal record with no hope at all for, 7-10 years.

That said, if you're a police officer or politician or a mom that kills her 6 month old, it's a suspended sentence with no criminal record if you're good for 1 year.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


urbanriot
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Canada
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Reviews:
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1 recommendation

reply to Gone

said by Gone:

If you know nothing about the situation or who this Ashley Girl is, urbanruot, here's a tip: »lmgtfy.com/?q=Ashley+Smith

Oh, okay, so you can't actually relay a summary of the issue, only engage in what seems to be a gross exaggeration of something that bothers you.

You could have just said that.

Based on the presentation of the issue, I'm going to have to side with the cool headed DKS on this one.


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
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said by urbanriot:

Oh, okay, so you can't actually relay a summary of the issue, only engage in what seems to be a gross exaggeration of something that bothers you.

My response is purely emotional. It is not my job to relay summaries of an issues you have no knowledge of. That's your own job to figure out. I owe you nothing.

Are you trying to tell us that you are not outraged with the context of these videos and the apparent way that this young woman was mistreated? DKS was quite blunt with his description of the piss-poor "system" we have when it comes to caring for people with mental health issues in this country. He may be cool-headed, but he is most certainly not condoning it.

I do not hide the fact that I feel these people are bastards and that everyone from the top to the bottom should be held accountable for this woman's death. I am not the only one here who feels this way, to which the "social barometer" that you also so firmly hold to seems to pointing in the same direction. To quote Rosie DiManno over at the Star, "After watching videotapes of Ashley Smith, suicide feels entirely a sane option."

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.

While I agree completely with some of what you said, I respectfully disagree about the role of individuals and their culpability.

Systems/society are made up of individuals and while the 'system' points to certain rules, it is up to individuals to give action to those rules. Some choose to hide behind the rules while others choose to deal with the moral questions those rules raise. This is why we see judges pushing back against mandatory minimums, and the all too rare placing of one's own fate secondary to the morality of the issue as did Oskar Schindler during the moral depravity of the Nazi regime.

Individuals MUST ultimately be held accountable, (policy makers, administrators, treatment providers, security & other personnel) all of whom contributed to this unnecessary tragedy whether or not it is presently within the Terms of reference of this inquest.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:4

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.