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Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
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reply to peterboro

Re: [Serious] Statists, be proud! re: Ashley Smith

said by peterboro:

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

I tend to agree with this. All levels need to be held accountable as part of the process to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
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Peterborough, ON
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.

said by DKS:

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.

I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
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Owen Sound, ON
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said by peterboro:

said by DKS:

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.

I am well aware of the experiments you cite. Indeed, there is recent, similar research on soldiers committing atrocities during war. The point is, however, marginal.

said by DKS:

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.

I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.

I did not say that. I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


TLS2000
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reply to Markie

As a society, we've been struggling with how to deal with mental health issues for centuries. They still haven't come up with a decent solution. It's really sad.

Most mental health cases that cause a person to commit crimes result in that person ending up in the prison system, where they receive no treatment for their problems.
--
Tom



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by TLS2000:

Most mental health cases that cause a person to commit crimes result in that person ending up in the prison system, where they receive no treatment for their problems.

She most likely should have never been in there to begin with. It was a case of one institution pawning her off to another because no one was willing or able to adequately deal with her.


J E F F
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reply to TLS2000

said by TLS2000:

Most mental health cases that cause a person to commit crimes result in that person ending up in the prison system, where they receive no treatment for their problems.

That's exactly the problem. Even if not in jail, at least with a criminal record with no hope at all for, 7-10 years.

That said, if you're a police officer or politician or a mom that kills her 6 month old, it's a suspended sentence with no criminal record if you're good for 1 year.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


urbanriot
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reply to Gone

said by Gone:

If you know nothing about the situation or who this Ashley Girl is, urbanruot, here's a tip: »lmgtfy.com/?q=Ashley+Smith

Oh, okay, so you can't actually relay a summary of the issue, only engage in what seems to be a gross exaggeration of something that bothers you.

You could have just said that.

Based on the presentation of the issue, I'm going to have to side with the cool headed DKS on this one.


Gone
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said by urbanriot:

Oh, okay, so you can't actually relay a summary of the issue, only engage in what seems to be a gross exaggeration of something that bothers you.

My response is purely emotional. It is not my job to relay summaries of an issues you have no knowledge of. That's your own job to figure out. I owe you nothing.

Are you trying to tell us that you are not outraged with the context of these videos and the apparent way that this young woman was mistreated? DKS was quite blunt with his description of the piss-poor "system" we have when it comes to caring for people with mental health issues in this country. He may be cool-headed, but he is most certainly not condoning it.

I do not hide the fact that I feel these people are bastards and that everyone from the top to the bottom should be held accountable for this woman's death. I am not the only one here who feels this way, to which the "social barometer" that you also so firmly hold to seems to pointing in the same direction. To quote Rosie DiManno over at the Star, "After watching videotapes of Ashley Smith, suicide feels entirely a sane option."

MaynardKrebs
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reply to DKS

said by DKS:

I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.

While I agree completely with some of what you said, I respectfully disagree about the role of individuals and their culpability.

Systems/society are made up of individuals and while the 'system' points to certain rules, it is up to individuals to give action to those rules. Some choose to hide behind the rules while others choose to deal with the moral questions those rules raise. This is why we see judges pushing back against mandatory minimums, and the all too rare placing of one's own fate secondary to the morality of the issue as did Oskar Schindler during the moral depravity of the Nazi regime.

Individuals MUST ultimately be held accountable, (policy makers, administrators, treatment providers, security & other personnel) all of whom contributed to this unnecessary tragedy whether or not it is presently within the Terms of reference of this inquest.


Anav
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Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.


peterboro
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said by Anav:

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.

Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility.


urbanriot
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said by Gone:

My response is purely emotional. It is not my job to relay summaries of an issues you have no knowledge of. That's your own job to figure out. I owe you nothing.

Well I get that you're emotional about every thread but it's becoming tiresome and disruptive. I hadn't asked you for anything, I'd asked the person that created the thread, so you don't need to add to every thread that you don't owe me anything because I'm not asking for anything from you.

Again, I'd asked the thread creator for some information concerning the woman this thread concerns as it wasn't provided and the link doesn't provide it either.

said by Gone:

Are you trying to tell us that you are not outraged with the context of these videos and the apparent way that this young woman was mistreated?

Context is everything and this outrage has no context.

You compared this woman's suicide with the suicide of a young girl that was bullied, yet the quotes above suggest this woman is an inmate who will be injected with anti-psychotic drugs.

The bolded words illustrate how I can't immediately agree with such a comparison, as this woman was guilty of something... psychotic? Did she murder a family? Murder children?

If she's guilty of a heinous act, it most certainly affects where this lands on my care meter. If she's an innocent person then I'd obviously care more.

In summary, innocence is contextual to how I feel about this woman's treatment and as far as I'm concerned, all criminals are not equal. (I'm sure DKS and I do not agree on that topic)


DKS
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reply to peterboro

said by peterboro:

said by Anav:

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.

Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility.

No, I did not. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said there are huge systemic issues at work here. What is less clear are the matters involving employment and policy. It is to be hoped that the scope of the inquest will allow those to come out. One of the questions raised in my mind is the clinical practice of repeatedly administering high doses of anti-psychotics without being seen by a psychiatrist.
--
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Gone
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1 edit
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Well I get that you're emotional about every thread but it's becoming tiresome and disruptive.

To which, as I've said in the past, what you think is something that I genuinely have no concern or worry for. Your opinion is not something I am at all concerned about.


Gone
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reply to DKS

said by DKS:

One of the questions raised in my mind is the clinical practice of repeatedly administering high doses of anti-psychotics without being seen by a psychiatrist.

It was my understanding that she had been under the care of staff psychiatrists at the facilities where she was held - not an ideal situation in of itself - but she would be repeatedly transferred out without the consultation of the professionals who were involved with her. She would then become another file folder in the pile of the next person at the next facility.

I do recall there was one health care professional involved in her care who had built a relationship and gained her trust and believed to have been making progress, only to see her transferred out without even so much notice or the ability to follow-up. If I remember, this was at the facility before the one where she took her own life.

I find this entire story very difficult to deal with. There's someone in my family who is around the same age as Ashley who has been in and out of the mental health system. I have seen first hand just how poor some of her treatment has been, and just how frustrated some of the well-intentioned professionals are due to lack of resources. I am so angry and so upset because in another world at another time those videos could have been of someone who I care very much about, and the treatment sickens my stomach. I can't even begin to fathom the toll this entire situation from has taken on Ashley's family.


urbanriot
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reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by urbanriot:

Well I get that you're emotional about every thread but it's becoming tiresome and disruptive.

To which, as I've said in the past, what you think is something that I genuinely have no concern or worry for. Your opinion is not something I am at all concerned about.

... then why do you go out of your way to respond? You clearly have some kind of agitation, concern or worry, otherwise you'd have simply ignored my post.

Heck, most recently you ignored everything I wrote concerning the topic and specifically focused on... you. Maybe that's the problem here.


Anav
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reply to Gone

Concur Gone, if one puts oneself in the shoes of her family members ie if it had happened to ones brother or sister it would be emotionally overwhelming (completely natural reaction). The problem with these situations is we never have a complete picture and what is sad is that authorities (be it RCMP, correctional services) try to hide the truth and thus our trust for them is continually diminishing.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

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Anav
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reply to DKS

said by DKS:

said by peterboro:

said by Anav:

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.

Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility.

No, I did not. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Yeah what he said!! Im the only one who can put words in his mouth (and nothing else!!) but when I am wrong he has permission to upside me in the head and I have to serve him breakfast in bed. Believe me the fear of the gas in his room ensures I dont step over the line.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


Gone
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reply to Anav

What upsets me more is that despite something as appalling as this happening, most Canadians will continue to give two shits about the plight of the mentally ill in this country and despite all our efforts that will all be for naught so long as people continue to not care. We have people going on about obesity, bullying and all sorts of other things as if they are epidemics and taking quick and decisive action to try and resolve them, but mental health?

I really don't know what's worse - the people who blame the ill which I have seen first-hand happen time and time again on this very forum, or the ones who are oblivious to what's going on and simply don't care which we also have examples of.


MaynardKrebs
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reply to Markie

Having had personal experience with a distant family member suffering from mental illness, I can assure all that there is a HUGE difference in the level & type of 'care' offered to the mentally ill when incarcerated by the criminal justice system vs. committal solely under the mental health act.

In the criminal mental health system, inmates (because that's how they are handled) are treated as not much more than pieces of meat to be processed no matter how insignificant their 'transgressions' were. In an involuntary committal solely under the mental health act, patients (yes - that's how they are described and treated) are treated with respect, dignity, care, compassion, and restraint by the hospital staff.

In both situations the mentally ill need & deserve treatment, but in one they seldom get the help to the degree which is required because one system is more about punishment than treatment.



vue666
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1 edit

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reply to Markie

It is quite obvious Ashley Smith is the victim of this horrendous situation. It is quite clear she is not a criminal but a person who was suffering from mental illness... I feel for her parents, her family...

A true tragedy...

Who is to blame? We as a society for allowing people like Ashley Smith to fall through the cracks. Yes Ashley paid the ultimate consequence because of our societal attitudes of people like Ashley but the price to society will be greater if we continue to neglect the Ashley Smiths of the world...

Sorry but there are real criminals who commit real crimes and yet they get a lighter sentence then Ashley for the childish prank of throwing an apple at a mailman. Granted the mailman may not have appreciated having an apple hurled in their direction but that's not the point now is it...

Edited: for grammar mistake



Gone
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

Having had personal experience with a distant family member suffering from mental illness, I can assure all that there is a HUGE difference in the level & type of 'care' offered to the mentally ill when incarcerated by the criminal justice system vs. committal solely under the mental health act.

The non-criminal system is far from ideal. Is it better? For sure, but it is hardly as wonderful as one could allude from your comments. I know this not from experience with a distant family member, but from one who is much more immediate than that.

The bigger problem with this one particular case right here is that Ashley Smith should have never been put into the criminal system - period. That doesn't diminish the fact that the entire criminal mental health system is a travesty, though.


Markie
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

If she's guilty of a heinous act, it most certainly affects where this lands on my care meter. If she's an innocent person then I'd obviously care more.

Here, this ought to paint a clearer portrait:

Smith was first charged with a criminal offence in March 2002, when she was 14 years old. In the following year, she faced charges of causing a public disturbance, trespassing and assault, according to a report from the New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman & Child and Youth Advocate.

Smith was first incarcerated at the age of 15 after an incident where she threw crab apples at a postal worker. She was convicted of multiple charges of breach of probation, common assault, trespassing and causing a disturbance.

She racked up six years worth of additional time behind bars for infractions while in youth custody — so many that she eventually ended up serving time in the federal adult prison system.

So no, she isn't an axe murderer nor an angel sent from heaven...
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

said by Gone:

said by urbanriot:

Well I get that you're emotional about every thread but it's becoming tiresome and disruptive.

To which, as I've said in the past, what you think is something that I genuinely have no concern or worry for. Your opinion is not something I am at all concerned about.

... then why do you go out of your way to respond? You clearly have some kind of agitation, concern or worry, otherwise you'd have simply ignored my post.

Heck, most recently you ignored everything I wrote concerning the topic and specifically focused on... you. Maybe that's the problem here.

Obviously Gone See Profile's feelings on this subject have personal connections and are charged with some emotion. Not always can we look at all situations with complete irreverence; sometimes it hits close to home, the words don't come out just right, and it's just not the time to turn it into personal attackfest. Pay the kindness forward; you might be surprised what happens.

said by urbanriot:

You compared this woman's suicide with the suicide of a young girl that was bullied, yet the quotes above suggest this woman is an inmate who will be injected with anti-psychotic drugs.

The bolded words illustrate how I can't immediately agree with such a comparison, as this woman was guilty of something... psychotic? Did she murder a family? Murder children?

If she's guilty of a heinous act, it most certainly affects where this lands on my care meter. If she's an innocent person then I'd obviously care more.

In summary, innocence is contextual to how I feel about this woman's treatment and as far as I'm concerned, all criminals are not equal. (I'm sure DKS and I do not agree on that topic)

Amanda Todd's death was a tragedy, just like Ashley Smith's. A person does not need to be treated like that while in custody. One can clearly see she was restrained beyond what is necessary and treated inhumanely.

She didn't murder a family. She threw crabapples at a mailman and trespassed. Most of her problems were from her being locked up in adult jail since 2006, where she routinely tried to injure herself and others. She had an array of personality disorders.

Do you believe that you are born good or evil, urbanriot See Profile?


I laffed

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said by Last Parade:

She threw crabapples at a mailman and trespassed.

LOL who hasn't done worse as a kid? I've done 10x worse than that. Multi-times.

The whole reason she was locked up is pathetic.

Funny how even the doctors involved in Ontario are fighting this inquiry into their role in all this.


urbanriot
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In the event that anyone else is curious, it seems this girl ended up in this situation based on a series of events that began with, according to Wikipedia:

quote:
On January 8, 2009, CBC News Network's the fifth estate broadcast a documentary about the case titled "Out of Control". In the documentary, reporter Hana Gartner describes Smith as a fourteen year old placed in a youth facility for one month in 2003 after throwing crab apples at the mailman.
It seems that a number of youth facilities could not contain her and her behaviour was described as 'violent and unpredictable'. Violent but it doesn't seem she's committed any horrific crimes.

So it seems this was a girl that could not be contained by normal means and the treatment was excessively bad.


vue666
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reply to Markie

Causing a public disturbance, throwing apples, trespassing, hell a lot of kids in North America could be accused of this at some point in their life...

Probably not well behaved or ideal behaviour but hardly a criminal...

She was a very sick young lady who deserved medical attention. She fell through the cracks. If anyone is guilty it is us. To move onward on this situation, we must first look inward at ourselves as a society and ask what is our goal, what is our aim for our society to evolve, to become better... Putting sick people who have committed no real crimes other then juvenile pranks into our prison system is not in our best interests...

Sorry I have NO time for real criminals (you all know that and my soap box stands on crime) but Ashley was not a criminal... For her I have nothing but compassion and a sense of failure.

Our goal should be to look after the meek, the infirm, the elder and not toss them aside.. We tossed Ashley aside and put her into the junk heap when all she needed was some loving care...



Gone
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reply to Markie

said by Markie:

So no, she isn't an axe murderer nor an angel sent from heaven...

So, is it your contention that someone other than an angel sent from heaven should be exposed to the kind of inhumane treatment that Ashley Smith received?


vue666
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reply to I laffed

said by I laffed :

said by Last Parade:

She threw crabapples at a mailman and trespassed.

LOL who hasn't done worse as a kid? I've done 10x worse than that. Multi-times.

The whole reason she was locked up is pathetic.

Funny how even the doctors involved in Ontario are fighting this inquiry into their role in all this.

Can we really blame the guard as I doubt they receive training in how to cope with people like Ashley. Prison guards should be contending with criminals and not people like Ashley. She belonged in an hospital.


Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

said by vue666:

said by I laffed :

said by Last Parade:

She threw crabapples at a mailman and trespassed.

LOL who hasn't done worse as a kid? I've done 10x worse than that. Multi-times.

The whole reason she was locked up is pathetic.

Funny how even the doctors involved in Ontario are fighting this inquiry into their role in all this.

Can we really blame the guard as I doubt they receive training in how to cope with people like Ashley. Prison guards should be contending with criminals and not people like Ashley. She belonged in an hospital.

What if you could trace the behaviour of a 'criminal' (as you say) back to their upbringing? Are they still as guilty?