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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Gone

Re: [Serious] Statists, be proud! re: Ashley Smith

said by Gone:

The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

EdmundGerber

join:2010-01-04
kudos:1

said by DKS:

said by Gone:

The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.

You think funding is the problem??? Explain the need for 6 stormtroopers in full riot gear for one teen. At 5:30 AM. I bet everyone one of those SOB's is earning nearly 6 figures. Funding excuse be damned!

This goes all the way to the top, and the attitude of our current government. I fucking weep for what's become of Canada!


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by EdmundGerber:

said by DKS:

said by Gone:

The system failed for Ashley, and the way she was allowed to be treated is nothing short of criminal.

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.

You think funding is the problem??? Explain the need for 6 stormtroopers in full riot gear for one teen. At 5:30 AM. I bet everyone one of those SOB's is earning nearly 6 figures. Funding excuse be damned!

This goes all the way to the top, and the attitude of our current government. I fucking weep for what's become of Canada!

You really should make an effort to become informed. I work in the health care and corrections system as part of my job and do volunteer work in the mental health system. I have a child very similar to Ashley, although, fortunately, the helping circle has prevented a similar outcome so far.

Learn some facts. Better yet, stop crying "The Horror! The Horror!" and start advocating with our politicians for change. Money IS the issue.

Mental health is the poorest relative in the health care system. Workers in the mental health system are largely non-unionized and have had their salaries frozen for twelve of the last fifteen years. They have no pensions and few benefits. They earn up to 40% less than those in the hospital system.

Sunshine list? Don't make me laugh. Outside of psychiatrists and a few administrators, there are damned few there. Of all the mental health workers in our area (there are about 90 in the outpatient sector) exactly one is on the Sunshine List and she works 80 hours a week.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

said by DKS:

Sunshine list? Don't make me laugh. Outside of psychiatrists and a few administrators, there are damned few there. Of all the mental health workers in our area (there are about 90 in the outpatient sector) exactly one is on the Sunshine List and she works 80 hours a week.

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. The guards in the video could very well be on the Sunshine List, which is the wrong place to spend the money. In other words, the money is there, it's just allocated to the wrong place.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by shaner:

said by DKS:

Sunshine list? Don't make me laugh. Outside of psychiatrists and a few administrators, there are damned few there. Of all the mental health workers in our area (there are about 90 in the outpatient sector) exactly one is on the Sunshine List and she works 80 hours a week.

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. The guards in the video could very well be on the Sunshine List, which is the wrong place to spend the money. In other words, the money is there, it's just allocated to the wrong place.

No, I understand better than you can imagine. No one has evidence or proof of any guard there being on any Sunshine List. Suggesting that is nothing more than unproductive, idle speculation. However, there is evidence of chronic under-funding of the mental health system.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

No, the "system" did not "fail". The "system" is not well designed to handle people with severe mental health issues and especially those under 17 in the first place.

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. There are alternatives. Sadly, our "crime and punishment" mentality (and that of the current government in Ottawa) is nothing but a massive failure for people with serious medical conditions who commit crimes.

While you were able to better explain why something like this happened, the situation doesn't sicken me any less.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis.

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

There are plenty of examples through history from the Stanford Prison Experiment to Auschwitz and to give some of these people a pass because of systemic funding problems is shameful.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by peterboro:

said by DKS:

What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis.

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

There are plenty of examples through history from the Stanford Prison Experiment to Auschwitz and to give some of these people a pass because of systemic funding problems is shameful.

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to peterboro

said by peterboro:

I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment.

I tend to agree with this. All levels need to be held accountable as part of the process to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.

said by DKS:

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.

I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by peterboro:

said by DKS:

And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.

Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.

I am well aware of the experiments you cite. Indeed, there is recent, similar research on soldiers committing atrocities during war. The point is, however, marginal.

said by DKS:

No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful.

I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.

I did not say that. I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by DKS:

I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.

While I agree completely with some of what you said, I respectfully disagree about the role of individuals and their culpability.

Systems/society are made up of individuals and while the 'system' points to certain rules, it is up to individuals to give action to those rules. Some choose to hide behind the rules while others choose to deal with the moral questions those rules raise. This is why we see judges pushing back against mandatory minimums, and the all too rare placing of one's own fate secondary to the morality of the issue as did Oskar Schindler during the moral depravity of the Nazi regime.

Individuals MUST ultimately be held accountable, (policy makers, administrators, treatment providers, security & other personnel) all of whom contributed to this unnecessary tragedy whether or not it is presently within the Terms of reference of this inquest.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.


peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

said by Anav:

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.

Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by peterboro:

said by Anav:

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.

Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility.

No, I did not. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said there are huge systemic issues at work here. What is less clear are the matters involving employment and policy. It is to be hoped that the scope of the inquest will allow those to come out. One of the questions raised in my mind is the clinical practice of repeatedly administering high doses of anti-psychotics without being seen by a psychiatrist.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by DKS:

One of the questions raised in my mind is the clinical practice of repeatedly administering high doses of anti-psychotics without being seen by a psychiatrist.

It was my understanding that she had been under the care of staff psychiatrists at the facilities where she was held - not an ideal situation in of itself - but she would be repeatedly transferred out without the consultation of the professionals who were involved with her. She would then become another file folder in the pile of the next person at the next facility.

I do recall there was one health care professional involved in her care who had built a relationship and gained her trust and believed to have been making progress, only to see her transferred out without even so much notice or the ability to follow-up. If I remember, this was at the facility before the one where she took her own life.

I find this entire story very difficult to deal with. There's someone in my family who is around the same age as Ashley who has been in and out of the mental health system. I have seen first hand just how poor some of her treatment has been, and just how frustrated some of the well-intentioned professionals are due to lack of resources. I am so angry and so upset because in another world at another time those videos could have been of someone who I care very much about, and the treatment sickens my stomach. I can't even begin to fathom the toll this entire situation from has taken on Ashley's family.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5

Concur Gone, if one puts oneself in the shoes of her family members ie if it had happened to ones brother or sister it would be emotionally overwhelming (completely natural reaction). The problem with these situations is we never have a complete picture and what is sad is that authorities (be it RCMP, correctional services) try to hide the truth and thus our trust for them is continually diminishing.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment



Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to DKS

said by DKS:

said by peterboro:

said by Anav:

Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed.

Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility.

No, I did not. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Yeah what he said!! Im the only one who can put words in his mouth (and nothing else!!) but when I am wrong he has permission to upside me in the head and I have to serve him breakfast in bed. Believe me the fear of the gas in his room ensures I dont step over the line.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Anav

What upsets me more is that despite something as appalling as this happening, most Canadians will continue to give two shits about the plight of the mentally ill in this country and despite all our efforts that will all be for naught so long as people continue to not care. We have people going on about obesity, bullying and all sorts of other things as if they are epidemics and taking quick and decisive action to try and resolve them, but mental health?

I really don't know what's worse - the people who blame the ill which I have seen first-hand happen time and time again on this very forum, or the ones who are oblivious to what's going on and simply don't care which we also have examples of.