 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to peterboro
Re: [Serious] Statists, be proud! re: Ashley Smith said by peterboro:said by DKS: What you are seeing is not "criminal" but the result of inadequate funding, planning and nothing shot of a "system" in crisis. I don't care what the funding or conditions of your profession and employment you make a conscious decision everyday how you will proceed in any given environment. And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest.
There are plenty of examples through history from the Stanford Prison Experiment to Auschwitz and to give some of these people a pass because of systemic funding problems is shameful.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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peterboroAvatars are for posersPremium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON | said by DKS: And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest. Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this.
said by DKS: No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful. I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by peterboro:said by DKS: And we have no idea how many staff refused to perform their job as it was defined. Again, undocumented speculation. That may come out before the jury next year at the inquest. Their job duties are irrelevant. It’s how they behaved in any given situation and the experiment I cited is a perfect example of this. I am well aware of the experiments you cite. Indeed, there is recent, similar research on soldiers committing atrocities during war. The point is, however, marginal.
said by DKS: No. Making undocumented accusations is shameful. I was commenting on your documented excuse that “the system made them do it” mentality.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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| said by DKS: I said that the system itself is in crisis and their actions are a deep symptom of that crisis. The response of individuals within a system in crisis is a peripheral (though significant) matter and nothing more than blame-seeking. It may even be outside of the Terms of Reference of the inquest. The attempt to name responsible individuals and their lack of action may well come out of the inquest recommendations, but that is not the issue at hand. To see it that way is to make the inquest too specific, too early on.
While I agree completely with some of what you said, I respectfully disagree about the role of individuals and their culpability.
Systems/society are made up of individuals and while the 'system' points to certain rules, it is up to individuals to give action to those rules. Some choose to hide behind the rules while others choose to deal with the moral questions those rules raise. This is why we see judges pushing back against mandatory minimums, and the all too rare placing of one's own fate secondary to the morality of the issue as did Oskar Schindler during the moral depravity of the Nazi regime.
Individuals MUST ultimately be held accountable, (policy makers, administrators, treatment providers, security & other personnel) all of whom contributed to this unnecessary tragedy whether or not it is presently within the Terms of reference of this inquest. |
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 AnavSarcastic Llama? Naw, Just AcerbicPremium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:3 | Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed. |
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peterboroAvatars are for posersPremium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON | said by Anav:Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed. Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility. |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by peterboro:said by Anav:Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed. Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility. No, I did not. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said there are huge systemic issues at work here. What is less clear are the matters involving employment and policy. It is to be hoped that the scope of the inquest will allow those to come out. One of the questions raised in my mind is the clinical practice of repeatedly administering high doses of anti-psychotics without being seen by a psychiatrist.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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 GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3
·Start Communicat..
| said by DKS:One of the questions raised in my mind is the clinical practice of repeatedly administering high doses of anti-psychotics without being seen by a psychiatrist. It was my understanding that she had been under the care of staff psychiatrists at the facilities where she was held - not an ideal situation in of itself - but she would be repeatedly transferred out without the consultation of the professionals who were involved with her. She would then become another file folder in the pile of the next person at the next facility.
I do recall there was one health care professional involved in her care who had built a relationship and gained her trust and believed to have been making progress, only to see her transferred out without even so much notice or the ability to follow-up. If I remember, this was at the facility before the one where she took her own life.
I find this entire story very difficult to deal with. There's someone in my family who is around the same age as Ashley who has been in and out of the mental health system. I have seen first hand just how poor some of her treatment has been, and just how frustrated some of the well-intentioned professionals are due to lack of resources. I am so angry and so upset because in another world at another time those videos could have been of someone who I care very much about, and the treatment sickens my stomach. I can't even begin to fathom the toll this entire situation from has taken on Ashley's family. |
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AnavSarcastic Llama? Naw, Just AcerbicPremium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:3 | Concur Gone, if one puts oneself in the shoes of her family members ie if it had happened to ones brother or sister it would be emotionally overwhelming (completely natural reaction). The problem with these situations is we never have a complete picture and what is sad is that authorities (be it RCMP, correctional services) try to hide the truth and thus our trust for them is continually diminishing.
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Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"
LlamaWorks Equipment |
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AnavSarcastic Llama? Naw, Just AcerbicPremium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:3 | reply to DKS
said by DKS:said by peterboro:said by Anav:Your respectfully disagreeing about nothing. DKS never said personal responsiblity should be ignored, hes simply pointing out the actions of certain individuals are simply one part (not the whole) of a systemic failure to cope with mental illness. ALL of it needs to be addressed. Nope. He is insinuating there are systemic issues that may negate personal responsibility. No, I did not. Please don't put words in my mouth. Yeah what he said!! Im the only one who can put words in his mouth (and nothing else!!) but when I am wrong he has permission to upside me in the head and I have to serve him breakfast in bed. Believe me the fear of the gas in his room ensures I dont step over the line. 
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Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"
LlamaWorks Equipment |
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GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
| reply to Anav
What upsets me more is that despite something as appalling as this happening, most Canadians will continue to give two shits about the plight of the mentally ill in this country and despite all our efforts that will all be for naught so long as people continue to not care. We have people going on about obesity, bullying and all sorts of other things as if they are epidemics and taking quick and decisive action to try and resolve them, but mental health?
I really don't know what's worse - the people who blame the ill which I have seen first-hand happen time and time again on this very forum, or the ones who are oblivious to what's going on and simply don't care which we also have examples of. |
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