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nonymous
Premium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
reply to royrogers

Re: CC Disaster

If my wife eventually ends up working from home that line may go to someone else. Thing is it will be more expensive so not a straight comparison.


MartinM
VoIP.ms
Premium,VIP
join:2008-07-21
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to royrogers

This is really not targetted at Call Centric, I'm happy they are back on track. However have to reply to this.

said by royrogers:

But let's be honest, the other carriers have had difficulty matching the legendary Callcentric reliability and voice quality without any of the challenges Callcentric has had to deal with.

Highly suggestive, how do you know what is going behind the scenes with the providers? How do you know what kind of challenges they have been through and are going through all the time?

quote:
I've used (and still use) plenty of other services. Some expensive ones like Broadvox. Still have had issues. Had a Broadvox outage that lasted about an hour a few weeks ago.

They have a good track record, one hour "a few weeks ago", on some date you can remember, is expected from time to time. It's still a very good uptime percentage.

quote:
It all boilds down to this: I'm not willing to give up a tiny bit of the Callcentric call completion reliability or quality for any amount of geographic redundancy.

Doing so would be sort of like trading a Honda or Toyota for TWO Yugo's.

Sure, I'd have redundancy. I'd basically have redundant junk, though.

No need to put down other providers to defend your point. Bad comparison as well, Call Centric went through a rough moment, it's ok and I'm glad people are defending them as we need healthy providers and they have had a stellar reputation in the past, but no need to try bringing others down with poor taste comparisons like that. It doesn't make your point any stronger, quite the contrary actually, doesn't give you much credibility.
--
Martin - VoIP.ms


Bastian

@199.180.251.x
reply to royrogers

It all boilds down to this: I'm not willing to give up a tiny bit of the Callcentric call completion reliability or quality for any amount of geographic redundancy.

Doing so would be sort of like trading a Honda or Toyota for TWO Yugo's.

Sure, I'd have redundancy. I'd basically have redundant junk, though.

You must not be aware of how good voip carriers are compared to callcentric. Voipo, anveo and voip.ms, to name three, do a fine job of reliability and sound - they are not junk.

And they have a far-more sophisticated callflow setup. It is really like comparing the callcentric scooter with the anveo (or voipo or voip.ms) sports car.

royrogers

join:2012-10-17
reply to MartinM

said by MartinM:

No need to put down other providers to defend your point. Bad comparison as well, Call Centric went through a rough moment, it's ok and I'm glad people are defending them as we need healthy providers and they have had a stellar reputation in the past, but no need to try bringing others down with poor taste comparisons like that. It doesn't make your point any stronger, quite the contrary actually, doesn't give you much credibility.

On the contrary, it was an outstanding "comparison," otherwise you wouldn't be questioning my credibility right now (thanks for that, BTW).

There is nothing in my post which requires credibility on my behalf. I only point this out because your questioning of my credibility is a debate tactic. One that is typically used when the well has run dry.

I'm stating that the volume of all the reviews, all the postings about problems with other carriers, speaks for itself. I'm not saying "I have these reports, trust me." I'm saying "no need to trust me, you can go look at the reports yourself, this site is full of them."

And if you or anyone else go look at those reviews, I think you will find it difficult (if not impossible) to find another provider that can even match Callcentric's long history of quality, and reliability.

So trading two days of service interruption for daily/weekly/monthly or whatever problems just doesn't seem like a reasoned decision to me.

What it does seem like, is an attempt to sway people reading this thread to move from Callcentric to another provider.

royrogers

join:2012-10-17
reply to Bastian

said by Bastian :

You must not be aware of how good voip carriers are compared to callcentric. Voipo, anveo and voip.ms, to name three, do a fine job of reliability and sound - they are not junk.

And they have a far-more sophisticated callflow setup. It is really like comparing the callcentric scooter with the anveo (or voipo or voip.ms) sports car.

Which one of the three do you work for?

Here is a thread about sudden one-way audio for voip.ms users (one user had no problems for nine months, then the problem appeared, so not just new, inexperienced users):
»www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthr···=1398939

Here is a thread about Voipo. Apparently you have to be firm with them when you experience a problem:
»forums.hostgator.com/voipo-going···2ac&

Here is a thread about Anveo. Worked for a year, then choppy calls:
»Review of Anveo by oshkosh

If you go back a couple of months, in fact, what you will see is lots of people leaving other providers FOR Callcentric.


Sly
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Chuckey, TN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Callcentric

2 recommendations

reply to Telco

Thread summary

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gSQg1i_q2g

madjeff

join:2005-04-30
united state
kudos:1

3 recommendations

reply to PX Eliezer7

Re: CC Disaster

said by PX Eliezer7:

said by madjeff:

PX, sorry man but I'm done with the circular arguments. You know I don't expect a full hotsite built and rolled out in three days and to suggest I expect otherwise is just being disingenuous.

I'm just going by your clear statements in several posts.

You are leaving and nothing they do now will convince you to stay. I truly don't know how else to interpret your statements.

I've been VERY clear and consistant about my concerns throughout this discussion, and you continue to either ignore the points I bring up, or twist them to mean something other than what I clearly stated. Let me CLEARLY restate these points I've been consistently making during these discussions:

• I've been a very satisfied client of CC for many years and have continued to recommend it to MANY of my clients. I don't want CC to fail, I want them to grow stronger by learning from these events.

• I was very understanding about the DDoS issue (as I've had to deal with a few myself over the years) and explained the issue to many of my clients that could not understand why thier phone lines were down or terribly choppy. I took heat from them for defending CC, but stood by them.

• Being down and completely dark due to the power from a storm they had days of warning about was an avoidable event IF they had a proper BCP/DR plan in place ahead of time. This is a simple fact, and to argue otherwise is just arguing for argument's sake.

• The lack of good communications to customers about intentions before, during, and after the storm were extremely disappointing and ineffectual.

• Based on IScream's statements, he admitted they had made plans for a DR site in a different location but that due to budget that was nixed, and that plan has now been kicked down the road for awhile.

• Per Iscream's statements, while having redundant systems in case of hardware failure, they are located mostly in one physical office/location/floor. This is my major concern and reason for no longer trusting CC with my (and my clients that have them there) main DID numbers. They are one fire or sprinkler system malfunction from losing everything. To me, that is not acceptable from a provider I rely on for my inbound phone numbers. I will continue to use them as a backup outbound provider however, due to my previous history with them.

said by PX Eliezer7:

said by madjeff:

The point I've been making through the past week was that this should have been done long before this event ever happened.

Perhaps. But again, suppose they do accomplish this in the near future. Your attitude seems to be that because they didn't do it in the past, there is no chance for redemption based on what they accomplish from here on out.

Again, you make statements while obviously ignoring the very statement I said otherwise. I've specifically stated this in several posts:

said by madjeff:

As a business owner i tend to stay loyal to vendors, but always re-evaluate relationships on a regular basis.



That means exactly what it says. After a period of time I'll re-evaluate CC to see if they have addressed the issues that are important to me and my clients. If I think they have solved the issues, they will probably be back in my top 2 providers once again. I NEVER stated they had one shot, either directly or implied. You seem to just be twisting my words to try and make my concerns seem unreasonable.

said by PX Eliezer7:

said by madjeff:

The point I've been making through the past week was that this should have been done long before this event ever happened.

There's a point at which constructive criticism becomes vindictive perseveration.

They didn't strangle any puppies.

Again, twisting my words. The only reason I've repeated these points multiple times is because you and a few others seem to completely ignore or gloss over the points I've tried to address during this discussion. I feel I've been more than fair with my comments and not tried to turn this into a "bash CC" session.

Although I do have to thank you for making me learn a new word, I had to look that one up. I would argue that you are the one with the condition, but I digress...

said by PX Eliezer7:

said by madjeff:

For those that don't mind having their DID's offline for extended periods of time due to an event that compromises Callcentric's ability to provide service will be happy (or not) with what they have and stay a customer. Those of us who need to be able to have some faith that our Voip provider has made at least some plans to continue to supply services in the event of an emergency will move (however reluctantly) to other providers.

Again, that says that in your view nothing that they do from here on out matters. Why else would you be talking about additional extended outages?

Again, you miscontrue my statement. What words above have anything to do with what I will decide in the future IF they resolve the issues I've brought up during this discussion. My point was, the cheerleaders will continue to cheer, and those of us with valid concerns will weigh the risks and make our business decisions based on the analysis of the company's statements and known plans moving forward. This discussion between you and I really has little bearing on the matter. For every one of us on this forum, there are thousands of others looking at this past month and making the desicion to stay or leave based on what has happened and how they feel Callcentric will do moving forward. You and I are but a drop of water in a very large pond my friend.

As for talking about additional outages, I think that was the entire point. As of right now, they have very few ways to recover in the event of a DR event at their main office, be it fire, flood, whatever. It's not about the few hours here or there that they may have network issues. I've NEVER stated that I expect 100% uptime and challenge you to show me any statement I've made to the contrary. Like we've both said, shit happens all the time. I'm a realist, I don't expect 100% uptime from ANY vendor I have.

HOWEVER, I do expect them to do their best to do their due dilligence and have a plan in place to try to deliver the service they are paid for. Others may disagree, and that is their right. However, outside of the VOIP as a hobby group I think it's not unreasonable to expect a company to have some plans in place to mitigate these type of disaster events so service can continue outside of the geographic area affected by the disaster event. I've had small issues with Voip.ms, Vitelity, Broadvox, and others, but for the most part they have also been pretty rock solid as well the past 4-5 years with occasional outages. And they all have multiple POP locations, which is a step ahead of Callcentric at the moment. Will that gaurantee they never go down? No, but at least they have taken steps to try and mitigate that from happening.

When this thread started I was hoping we could have a productive discussion on what happened, get some feedback from Callcentric, and make suggestions on what they could do and learn from moving forward to help mitigate future issues like this. It's obviously degenerated into a Rah Rah session with any contructive critisism getting put down by a few of the cheering squad, so I'll let it go at that.

Frankly, I've spent way more time than I should have with this thread, so I'll let you guys get back to it.

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to Bastian

said by Bastian :

Voipo, anveo and voip.ms, to name three, do a fine job of reliability and sound - they are not junk.

And they have a far-more sophisticated callflow setup.

I really did not want this to be an internecine conflict....

But you seem incompletely informed.

Correct, you have named 3 good providers, and they are not junk.

But---

[Voipo] is a fine company, but they do [not] really support BYOD, and their callflow is simply [not] that sophisticated. I doubt that you've used it, otherwise you'd know that.

Anveo is great for people who watch "The Big Bang Theory" but otherwise needs important improvements in documentation and User Experience.

Voip.MS is a fine provider too. But there are some things they do better than CC, and some things that CC does better than them. I don't want to have a repeat of October 1864 when Vermont was attacked through Quebec, so I'll leave it at that.

--------------------------------------

As far as my feeling on CallCentric, I [do] understand fully the folks who choose to change, or feel they must.

What I [don't] understand are folks who rigidly say that [no matter what] occurs in the future they won't even look. But if they choose to be dogmatic rather than pragmatic, that is their privilege.

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to madjeff

Thanks for re-clarifying your points, and for your good wishes for CallCentric.



Arne Bolen
Happy Anveo customer
Premium
join:2009-06-21
Cyberspace
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Anveo
·voip.ms
reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

Anveo is great for people who watch "The Big Bang Theory"

I have to disagree with you on this point. Using Anveo is a piece of cake.
--
My VoIP News

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

said by Arne Bolen:

said by PX Eliezer7:

Anveo is great for people who watch "The Big Bang Theory"

I have to disagree with you on this point. Using Anveo is a piece of cake.

Well, if Anveo users [do] start watching "The Big Bang Theory" it will be another user benefit.

nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8

3 recommendations

reply to royrogers

said by royrogers:

But let's be honest, the other carriers have had difficulty matching the legendary Callcentric reliability and voice quality without any of the challenges Callcentric has had to deal with.

Who are you comparing to exactly? I don't know about other providers, but we haven't had any major outages at all this year, total downtime maybe 5-10 minutes the entire year. Last year we had a major outage which took down our data center in Florida. Within 15 minutes outgoing calls and most of our incoming numbers were working again through a backup data center. Within 2.5 hours the remaining phone numbers were switched to the other data center and we were operating at 100%.

How does this compare to CallCentric again? that's right. They're MORE reliable because they had MORE downtime. Fanboy logic FTW.

royrogers

join:2012-10-17

said by nitzan:

Who are you comparing to exactly? I don't know about other providers, but we haven't had any major outages at all this year, total downtime maybe 5-10 minutes the entire year.

I don't know what outfit you represent, but am I to take it that you had major outages last year?

The year before?

How long since your last major outage?

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

Nitzan operates FutureNine (F9/FNC), Cheap Voip Inc, and the website »www.cheapvoipproviders.org/

Thus, [Voipage à trois].


rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric

1 edit
reply to Arne Bolen

said by Arne Bolen:

said by PX Eliezer7:

Anveo is great for people who watch "The Big Bang Theory"

I have to disagree with you on this point. Using Anveo is a piece of cake.

To be perfectly blunt, their webpage is almost totally unusable -- until someone (like you) explains it. Other than that they've been fine, but I don't think I would have ever figured out their pricing without your help.

As to some other concerns ... As far as I can tell, CallCentric is much less dependent on the public Internet than any of the other BYOD suppliers who show up in discussions here. (Not sure about Vitelity, for some reason discussion about them doesn't appear here as much.) But this is probably the subject for another thread.

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to madjeff

said by madjeff:

• Being down and completely dark due to the power from a storm they had days of warning about was an avoidable event IF they had a proper BCP/DR plan in place ahead of time. This is a simple fact, and to argue otherwise is just arguing for argument's sake.

As far as leaving CallCentric, that's your choice and good luck with it. But calling Hurricane/Tropical Storm Sandy "a storm" is a bit misleading. Days of warning can't prepare you for 14 foot swells (four feet above the past record swells in Manhattan) or the fact that this storm inundated parts of New York (and particularly lower Manhattan) and turned it into a disaster area ... and where even the New York Stock Exchange went down for two days. Remember all the talk about Hurricane Katrina? This "storm" actually caused more damage than Katrina. So I'm willing to cut CallCentric some slack here. And you can call me a fan boy -- I really don't care. CallCentric has reliable, quality service and I can take a 2 day outage when the "storm of the century" is aimed directly at them. Reality intruded, that's about all you can say.

nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8

1 edit
reply to royrogers

said by royrogers:

I don't know what outfit you represent, but am I to take it that you had major outages last year?
The year before?
How long since your last major outage?

List of major outages we've had:
5/30/2008: down hard for 7 hours because our server kept crashing and we didn't implement backup servers yet at that point. Note this was 3 months after we started beta service, and also note we implemented a backup data center a week later.
10/21/2008: down hard for 4 hours. our failover scripts weren't working properly, and fixed after this.
5/31/2009: intermittent up/down for 1 hour because service was bouncing between primary and backup servers.
12/8/2011: 100% down for 15 minutes, 25% down for another 2 hours. (see my previous post)
2/28/2012: a couple of minor outages (a few minutes each) - service automatically failed over.

Total downtime in 5 years: about 14-15 hours.
Total downtime the last 4 years: about 3 hours.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to rblizz

said by rblizz:

This "storm" actually caused more damage than Katrina.

Where on Earth did you get that idea?

gweidenh

join:2002-05-18
Houston, TX
kudos:3

oh snap, we are already altering history? a bit soon, no?


PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to AVonGauss

said by AVonGauss:

said by rblizz:

This "storm" actually caused more damage than Katrina.

Where on Earth did you get that idea?

While I hate that this has degenerated into a comparison of two great tragedies, I note this:

Hurricane Sandy is the second most powerful hurricane in modern history, with its might exceeding even that of Katrina, according to a measurement of the hurricane's strength in relation to its size.

Researchers have found that Sandy's Integrated Kinetic Energy index, or IKE, which quantifies the power of a hurricane based on how far out tropical-storm force winds extend from the center, ranked second only to Hurricane Isabel in 2003.

Hurricane Sandy's IKE was 140 Terajoules, which was about 20 Terajoules higher than Katrina's, according to Brian McNoldy, a senior researcher at the University of Miami's Rosenstiel School of Marin and Atmospheric Science.

»www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne···ina.html

David Greenlaw (of Morgan Stanley) says he doesn't expect "significant permanent job loss" or energy impacts in the wake of Sandy. "On the other hand, it seems like Sandy caused significantly more damage to transportation infrastructure than Katrina."

»www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/1101/···-Katrina

Katrina caused many more deaths, although if there had not been criminal negligence of the levees in Louisiana there would have been far fewer deaths and damage....

[rblizz] will have to speak for himself, but I would assume that part of what he meant was that Sandy affected so many millions of people in the key financial, transportation, and communication hub of the US, and so many tens of millions of people in the northeast states.

Really, though, I don't think this sort of comparison is useful....

Each was bad in its own way.

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to AVonGauss

said by AVonGauss:

said by rblizz:

This "storm" actually caused more damage than Katrina.

Where on Earth did you get that idea?

I don't know where I read it initially, but here's an article about Sandy had "more total energy at landfall" than Katrina.

»www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/cap···log.html

In the article you will read ...

quote:
Hurricane Katrina was “only” a Category 3 storm at landfall, yet ended up being the most costly natural disaster in our nation’s history due its impact on a vulnerable, highly populated low lying city. Sandy had Category 1 winds at landfall yet was able to create very significant storm surge over hundreds of miles of highly populated coastline. Katrina’s IKE was more concentrated, Sandy’s IKE was more spread out. This metric - more than wind speed - encapsulates the respective storms’ horrific effects. Sandy may end up as the second most costly storm in U.S. history. Given its top ranking IKE and the area it impacted, that should come as no surprise.
Point being, this was no ordinary "storm" as was implied in the post I was responding to.

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to gweidenh

said by gweidenh:

oh snap, we are already altering history? a bit soon, no?

Oh snap, someone hasn't been doing their homework.

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric

1 edit
reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

[rblizz] will have to speak for himself, but I would assume that part of what he meant was that Sandy affected so many millions of people in the key financial, transportation, and communication hub of the US, and so many tens of millions of people in the northeast states.

Really, though, I don't think this sort of comparison is useful....

Each was bad in its own way.

My point wasn't really to compare the two storms, it was to point out that Sandy was a major disaster not merely "a storm."

EDIT -- and here's probably the most significant figure when discussing CallCentric and power outages ...

Peak Power Outage, Katrina -- 1,700,000. Sandy -- 8,428,078. Obviously the density of the population in New York is the reason, but still a very major disaster.

»www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/0···432.html

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13

Definitely.


gweidenh

join:2002-05-18
Houston, TX
kudos:3
reply to rblizz

said by rblizz:

said by PX Eliezer7:

[rblizz] will have to speak for himself, but I would assume that part of what he meant was that Sandy affected so many millions of people in the key financial, transportation, and communication hub of the US, and so many tens of millions of people in the northeast states.

Really, though, I don't think this sort of comparison is useful....

Each was bad in its own way.

My point wasn't really to compare the two storms, it was to point out that Sandy was a major disaster not merely "a storm."

But you did... and it doesnt matter. Was their building damaged? They lost power. Whether it was caused by a mouse chewing the lines, or a Cat5 storm, the fact is they lost power.

Lets stick to the facts rather than glamorize the storm...

voip_wire

join:2010-07-02
kudos:1
reply to AVonGauss

said by AVonGauss:

said by rblizz:

This "storm" actually caused more damage than Katrina.

Where on Earth did you get that idea?

To add to that, per CNBC article, the cost of Sandy is estimated between $30 billion to $50 billion. Katrina's financial impact was $146 billion.

I understand that damage and financial damage can be drastically different, but given that Katrina hit areas with lower population density, the damage caused by Katrina was probably an order of magnitude more.

Please note that I am not trying to minimize or down play the impact of Sandy. If anything, it saddens me that we have declared 2-3 days of loss of connectivity a disaster.

However, as Andy wrote to Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. I hope that folks directly affected by the storm recover soon. I hope that CC moves forward with wisdom and strength. I hope that both people who leave CC and those who stay are content with their respective choices.

And above all, I hope that this thread would come to an end.

Cheers,
-m

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to gweidenh

said by gweidenh:

But you did... and it doesnt matter. Was their building damaged? They lost power. Whether it was caused by a mouse chewing the lines, or a Cat5 storm, the fact is they lost power.

Lets stick to the facts rather than glamorize the storm...

And your point is ... (what exactly?) That a major storm caused a major disaster? Is telling the truth about the effects of this storm "glamorizing" the storm? What part of the world do you live in where there are never natural disasters? And should any description of any disaster be referred to as "glamorizing" it?

Yeah, loss of power is why CallCentric went down -- but that loss of power, considering the situation and the force of the storm, was unavoidable. Sorry if that is considered "glamorizing" in your opinion. I call it "facing reality."

rblizz

join:2001-12-16
North Richland Hills, TX
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to voip_wire

said by voip_wire:

And above all, I hope that this thread would come to an end.

Yeah, I'll second that. I just wish people could, occasionally, put themselves in someone else's shoes.

madjeff

join:2005-04-30
united state
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to rblizz

Rblizz, I was going to type out a long reply and then realized it's a moot point. You continue to completely ignore the whole point with this "but... but... the disaster" argument. It's like watching a kid with his hands over his ears yelling LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING...

You win.



VexorgTR

join:2012-08-27
Sheffield Lake, OH
kudos:1
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Callcentric
reply to Telco

The bottom line is, Now that CallCentric is fixed up....

Let's see how it runs. Rather than complain about things that happened during October.... let's just develop our own individual backup plans, and make a decision as to whether CallCentric is and will be part of your calling scenario. I will keep CallCentric provided the service continues to operate as it did pre-october.

The end.