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sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
reply to alkizmo

Re: Generator doesn't work with Direct Vent Hot Water Heater

said by alkizmo:

"I didn't generalize, you did. You said the NG bond cannot be at the generator when they are connected to a transfer switch. They certainly can with certain transfer switches."

Sure they can be bonded at the transfer switch, but then it's classified under "Separately Derived Power Generation" in the NEC when you do that. Neutral switching is only required if the grounds are tied together, to avoid having the neutral above ground potential.

You still have to bond the ground and neutral at only one place.

said by alkizmo:

I doubt you understand how a transfer switch with neutral switching works.

I know exactly how a transfer switch with neutral switching works, and not all transfer switches work that way.

Don't ask to "learn" and for people to explain things when all you do is shoot down things that go against your preconcieved notions and ideas. It's similar to a child asking "why" to everything, that's just not how it's done is the simplest explanation.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by sk1939:

Sure they can be bonded at the transfer switch, but then it's classified under "Separately Derived Power Generation" in the NEC when you do that.

Neutral switching is only required if the grounds are tied together, to avoid having the neutral above ground potential.

Yes you're right that it is classified as a Separately Derived system, but you're wrong about why neutral switching is required.

In a non-neutral-switching transfer switch, you still have to join the generator's ground to the house's ground.

You still have to bond the ground and neutral at only one place.

Neutral switching only serves to disconnect the N/G bond from the main panel when the generator already has a N/G bond.

said by sk1939:

I know exactly how a transfer switch with neutral switching works, and not all transfer switches work that way.

I know, maybe I should have said "SOME" transfer switches switch neutral, but you did say this...

said by sk1939:

As far as the N/G bond, it's not at the generator with a transfer switch, it's bonded at the panel.

You made it sound like N/G bond is never at the generator when connected to a transfer switch.

said by sk1939:

Don't ask to "learn" and for people to explain things when all you do is shoot down things that go against your preconcieved notions and ideas. It's similar to a child asking "why" to everything, that's just not how it's done is the simplest explanation.

I know plenty to understand the complicated explanation.
I shot down explanations that weren't correct, such as:

- N/G bond creates a potential path to ground which is more dangerous than with house wiring (That is not true, it is not more dangerous, it is AS dangerous).

- A short to grounded items such as copper pipes will not trip the breaker (That is not unique to generators with N/G bond, house wiring works like that as well).

My issue is that you guys made it sound like its riskier than if you used a transfer switch. A transfer switch simply prevents backfeeding. Grounding and neutral bonding can be done properly without the need for a transfer switch, you simply don't connect the hot to the house's panel's hot.

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
said by alkizmo:

Neutral switching only serves to disconnect the N/G bond from the main panel when the generator already has a N/G bond.

Again, depends on your transfer panel. Some only flip between
main and generator lines, rather than in between each circuit, like this one.

»www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R···ApBhrY4Y

said by alkizmo:

You made it sound like N/G bond is never at the generator when connected to a transfer switch.

Perhaps I should have clarified that in general it is at the panel, but it may be at the tranfer switch depending on your switch. For 95% of homes it is still at the panel.

said by alkizmo:

My issue is that you guys made it sound like its riskier than if you used a transfer switch. A transfer switch simply prevents backfeeding. Grounding and neutral bonding can be done properly without the need for a transfer switch, you simply don't connect the hot to the house's panel's hot.

My issue isn't with the use of a transfer switch, it's with the half-assed neutral-ground solution you suggested. That is what is dangerous for a variety of reasons. Yes it can be done without a transfer switch, but the majority of people aren't going to know how and will do it wrong, the extension cord plug trick included.

said by alkizmo:

I shot down explanations that weren't correct, such as:

- A short to grounded items such as copper pipes will not trip the breaker (That is not unique to generators with N/G bond, house wiring works like that as well).

Never said it was, don't fill in the spaces yourself.

said by alkizmo:

Grounding and neutral bonding can be done properly without the need for a transfer switch, you simply don't connect the hot to the house's panel's hot.

The point of that is what exactly then? Some generators provide the ability on the genset itself to bond the neutral to ground. It dosen't really matter if you use an extension cord with a GFCI, or are powering things that don't have a high risk of shock, like a lamp. It's still important to have a ground though, via ground rod.