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reply to Immer
Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck I have kicked myself out of a raid group for sucking before. I used to be good with my s-priest but every once in a while I would just be horrible. On those occasions I would kick my self. Everyone should get the same treatment, good and bad. And yes I considered myself very mean for kicking me.
reply to Immer
said by Immer:So this is where we disagree. Here's my LFR social contract:
I don't hound players in LFR for performance. But if someone is abusing others incorrectly, I point out their error and then ask that they tone down the rhetoric and play the game. And then I offer to help the one "failing" via /whisper.
No doubt you think me calling a baddie for failing is "abusing others incorrectly." When I say "hey look at the dumb lock standing in fire" and it gets noticed fight after fight, perhaps you disagree that the correct course of action is something other than a kick.To me, this ^ is the minimally, socially acceptable way to deal with someone who doesn't belong in LFR. At worst, we quickly kick him and move on. Sucks to be him, boo hoo.
I don't care why he stands in fire. I don't care that his girlfriend is prancing in front of the monitor with nothing on. I don't care if his internet connection is slow because he's also downloading.
He's a stranger, and he's put in LFR to perform. If he can't, he has no place in LFR. It's hard to keep a group together if you aren't first held together by competence. It's the same thing that gives rise to esprit de corps, camaraderie, and sense of belonging/elitism in the military. When the shit hits the fan, you can depend on me to have your back and vice versa. If you aren't first held together by sheer competence, nothing else matters. Be able to do your job or GTFO of LFR.
I might be nicer to him (the group might not), and it might entirely depend on if I sat in traffic for longer than 3 hours total today, or maybe I empathized because we are the same class/race/whatever, but I don't have to, and it's not wrong if I don't. At the bare minimum, he deserves to be called out, justify his behavior (and something as simple as "sry was an accident wont happen again" is all it takes to defuse the situation) and put to a vote of the group. That's the social contract in LFR.
Anyways, my original premise that baddies are a bigger issue than abusers still stands. Especially if the baddies are provoking the abuse.
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis: in a you can't handle the truth, and since immer knows my morals are not nearly as high as his are. here's what happened.
What I said was the honest truth. You didn't lie or mistreat me. I didn't spend a dime on you. This isn't about me, either. You can continue to believe that this is about me versus you, but that'll get you nowhere. You're so wrapped up in what Archivis is doing that you've completely ignored what you've done.
No one is willing to confront you because they see the personality that you have. There is no wrong doing on your part. There is never an error on your part. You have a strong reputation on these forums and for any single individual to say otherwise would excommunicate them from this forum. It's not like people can just gquit and move on. These people paid cash, in the hundreds of dollars. HUNDREDS. And then they have to pay equal amount just to make up for their mistake. That's absurd!
This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.
we had a bad tank have some serious issues swapping dogs. he is no longer with us. we have had bad calls on swaps since then, my fault, but these mysterious aggro issues have not come back up.
as a progression leader on the greatest guild feathermoon ever knew back in bc, you should understand that performance on a brand new encounter within the first two weeks is not going to be optimal and that sometime practicing the movements is more important than outright dps; mostly cuz the dps to the floor tiles doesn't matter. and that 20k output was also a bad call on my part while dealing with purple and blue at the same time. too much movement.
and lastly, there is no need to berate anyone, publicly or privately if it will not have the desired effect. As I know both of them personally, I know how much help Immer's spouse, get this novel concept, asks for when her numbers take a hit. She reads up on hunter's union, but the glorious thing is she doesn't need to ask in vent, she can lean over and ask. taking a the time to find a few attempts on the logs where she underperformed is just low.
but since you have jobbie back(he's the only one that spent anywhere in the neighborhood of money you are talking about so it narrows it down), you could just ask him, "What was the bigger problem, the dps or the tank?"
in the end we lost a strong personality that was affecting the guild negatively, and a few other raiders left not knowing he had already transfered within the same afternoon.
so this singling out of Immer's spouse to get under his skin may have worked, and got him to walk out of this thread, but trust he is not a pascifist, not if you knew him personally, and he does hold everyone accountable for their performance.
in the end you claim to be a professional troll; most of us don't actually think that a title worth claiming or defending.
For Rogues, by Rogues, to be used at the Rogue drive through when you order a side-order of Rogue.
reply to Immer
said by Immer:
You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept?
said by Immer:
I speak up, not the way you implied. I take action, not the actions you implied. I get results without compromising my integrity or values. I fight when a fight is warranted. You keep making me out to be a pacifist. That's completely untrue. You don't understand me or what I stand for. That is why I'm not trying to change you, or convince you of anything.
said by Immer:Quote 1: Do you do this in your own raids?
As soon as something goes wrong, I start checking logs... I want to know who really "started" that fight (hunter Misdirect has lead me to vote the wrong person kicked once before). If I notice someone getting dumped on, I speak out. Most of the time the abuser backs off the abuse part and goes back to just pointing out what he/she views as the problem. I try to confirm in the meters. While doing that I usually whisper the accused/victim a question "first time?" or "do you know this fight?" They admit they're a noob, I focus on my /whispers to that person and am free to /ignore the asshat. If the rest of the raid boots the guy I'm working with, oh well. I did what I could.
I've also seen an entire LFR go from just "ignoring the abusive asshat" to banding against said asshat simply by getting the guy to "come at me" instead of his earlier target. It is much easier to do when you are the top healer, or top dps, but it is possible to be the catalyst for social change without being it's undeniable champion. Anyway, I can calmly continue to rebuke his demeanor (as I am handling this thread)... sometimes the rest of the LFR jumps in and marginalizes him. They don't always VTK the guy, because sometimes it is the Top DPS/DMG Done who feels entitled to being an ass. But at least, he's focused on someone who has thick skin(me) rather than someone who might actually be hurting, new, confused, a kid... etc. What is really great is if I can get the asshole to stop posting his venom in /rsay and move to /whisper just to me. That's a big win in my book.
I've had people create fresh toons on our server to say thanks. I've had people create fresh toons on our server to apologize for their demeanor while reiterating that they were justified.
Quote 2: Do you actually get results in your raids? How far is your progression? Sorry if the second one seems like I am lording my own progression over you, but it is the only real way to understand if you are actually getting results.
Quote 3: Do you do these things in your own raids? Ignoring the asshattery parts of this particular quote, focus on the "Is this person doing something wrong that can be fixed?" part. You stepped across the line of the discussion of just "abuse" whenever you entered into a discussion about "performance".
FYI: The whole point of Arch coming into this thread was for that very reason.
Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites. - Anthony J. D'Angelo
reply to Immer
I'm not going to read through 4 pages of this to trim it.
False start, 10 yard penalty, repeat thread.