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Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

1 recommendation

reply to Josof

Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck

said by Josof:

It's not about being a "white knight" but about being consistent and staying true to yourself (corny phrasing).

The moment you decide that Your Opinion is the only valid Opinion(tm) out there, and every other Opinion(tm) is "Stupid"(tm), you move from being self-referentially consistent and True to Yourself(tm) to an over-moralizing stick in the mud who is--yes--White-Knighting.

There are a lot of valid opinions in this thread about dealing with asshats, but some people here are purposefully misinterpreting and misconstruing what other people are saying.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by Blockfire:

If your whole point is that there are kids/young adults online that this can harm their psyche, then they either shouldn't play or be instructed on how to deal with this properly. That is the parents/legal guardians responsibility and I think taking that upon onself is presumptuous, much like your last two posts.

In any social setting, the responsibility for keeping interactions civil falls to everyone present... not JUST their parents and legal guardians.

And yes, I'm taking it to a personal level, because this is personal... you don't get to stop being a person just because you logged into a game. Exactly where have I gone "over the line"?
said by Krisnatharok:

said by Josof:

It's not about being a "white knight" but about being consistent and staying true to yourself (corny phrasing).

The moment you decide that Your Opinion is the only valid Opinion(tm) out there, and every other Opinion(tm) is "Stupid"(tm), you move from being self-referentially consistent and True to Yourself(tm) to an over-moralizing stick in the mud who is--yes--White-Knighting.

There are a lot of valid opinions in this thread about dealing with asshats, but some people here are purposefully misinterpreting and misconstruing what other people are saying.

Agreed. For example:
said by Immer:

said by Archivis:

said by Immer:

Be a coward... and then tell the abused they should have had thicker skin. Defend the rights of the abusers, and let the abused hurt in silence. I'll speak up. I'll VTK. I'll do what's right when you can't be bothered by it. Have a great day.

If there is something in LFR that can cause a person to think that they have been victimized in any traumatic manner, then that is a clear definition of being thin-skinned. Whether or not you respond is irrelevant at this point.

You should probably read up a bit. »www.cyberbullying.us/

Remember this post? I wasn't equating everything that happens in LFR to cyberbullying. I was pointing out that Archivis was over-reaching by implying that nothing could possibly be hurtful/victimizing in LFR just because it was over the internet. The point of that link was to remind folks that there are real people hurting over things that happen on the internet... regardless of whether or not you or any self-proclaimed professional troll thinks it has any merit.

What moral standard have I forcefully imposed on you guys? I've simply been fighting against the absolutist argument that there is NOTHING worth 'fighting' over in LFR. I maintain that there is such a thing as abuse that does go on and it should be rebuked, not just ignored. Your camp here keeps arguing that no such abuse could possibly happen... at best your camp is arguing that even if it DID happen, then the fault lies in the victim... "they shouldn't have been playing the game". That's simply an indefensible position.

I haven't even defined what I consider "abuse"... because I think that varies by person and that ultimately each person has an idea of what might be "too far" for them. I'm only asking that when that point is reached for you... speak up and do something rather than ignore it and be glad you aren't the one being accosted.

So, maybe I am white-knighting a bit... I'm defending the idea behind the OP. I'm defending the notion that there are situations where it's better to stand up for someone who is getting verbally abused than it is to pretend "oh that's just Archivis... I'm sure he's just making the internet a better place by toughening someone up". Verbal abuse... not "hey man your dps sucks"... but verbal abuse. We could use a few more white knights it seems... I'm sorry if this puts you on the wrong side of things from time to time.

This is me. I'm no different online (in a forum, in WoW, or in class) than I am IRL. I still love that DailyBlink pic... and think this entire thread illustrates perfectly the types of people we run into every week in WoW... and in life.

TL;DR: There's nothing wrong with standing up for someone who is getting abused... not in Life, and not in LFR. Stop insisting that only weak individuals have standards.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Josof

said by Josof:

said by Immer:

said by Blockfire:

If you're* too sensitive to have people saying inflammatory things, you shouldn't be playing the game,

But its okay... I'm sure you are all wonderful people on the inside. That is why you find it necessary to defend verbal abuse in the game.

I get where where Immer is coming from. He is a standing by his principles and that doesnt change when he hops on the internet. I feel the same way but it's the internet so theres nothing you can really do when someones being a douche, but to call it out.

It's not about being a "white knight" but about being consistent and staying true to yourself.

actually, you said it better than I did. Thanks.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:1

1) Seeing Arch and Kris in the top 3 of the "Regulars" list for this forum, I knew this forum went back to the outhouse.

2) Almost every single person in this thread was just trolled by Arch.

3) Saying that you can't change anything is a pretty flat argument.

4) "White knighting" aside, sticking by your principals is cool and all, however, this forum and WoW is probably the last place you will find support for being a "real person" on the internet.

5) This thread is entertainment.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

1 edit

said by Tirael:

1) Seeing Arch and Kris in the top 3 of the "Regulars" list for this forum, I knew this forum went back to the outhouse.

2) Almost every single person in this thread was just trolled by Arch.

3) Saying that you can't change anything is a pretty flat argument.

4) "White knighting" aside, sticking by your principals is cool and all, however, this forum and WoW is probably the last place you will find support for being a "real person" on the internet.

5) This thread is entertainment.

Aside from point 2, I'd have to agree. As for the whole "everyone got trolled by Archivis"... well, that's like saying "everyone here read an Archivis post". Calling it trolling implies he's "playing a role".
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:1

I raided with Arch for almost 2 years, spent hours in vent and in pub games with him.

»Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck

He pretty much told everyone he was about to start trolling them.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by Tirael:

I raided with Arch for almost 2 years, spent hours in vent and in pub games with him.

I haven't and won't. Best case scenario, then, is he's a method actor. Having someone announce they are going to "let one rip" doesn't make the smell any less atrocious. Those who can no longer distinguish the smell are usually the first to laugh at the reactions of those who can't believe how any living thing can emit such odor.


Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
Premium
join:2000-09-20
DFW
kudos:2

It's a rare talent that he has. A gift, really. The way he pulls people out... Pure awesomeness. Not the simpleton shit he's done here. It on a different level when he starts in on someone in Vent.



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 recommendation

reply to Immer

The biggest problem with this thread isn't that you think I'm right or that I think you're wrong, it's that you don't even understand my argument. It's like trying to explain to a dog why he shouldn't run a red light. At the end of the day, he's just going to hump your leg, take a shit on your carpet and not understand what you've said. You've got this mental picture of me that I'm somehow evil and that my sole purpose in life is to bully people into a state where they call their mothers in a flurry of tears. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Back to your "raid conduct". I don't seek out to disrupt raids or incite flame wars or to insult people. Most everything that I do that I am renowned for is reactionary. I don't actually disagree with your original post. I think that when raid conduct is not appropriate, you make your comments and if those go nowhere, you start the vote kick. Where you and I part ways is where I somehow feel that people need to be mentally rescued from these people in LFR. You somehow think that a person you've never met and will never see again within a time window of 15-90 minutes is going to somehow find a way to personally touch your soul. Unless you're offering up personal information, it is quite impossible to do that to a person unless the victim on the other side is an emotional wreck, in which case they're probably going to fail to function in real life. Rather than shield these fragile individuals from the world, I try to give them the tools to handle the world. We both agree to remark about misconduct in raids. We both agree that it is wrong. We both agree that a likely end result is a vote kick. We disagree on how a person may be personally afflicted by this as a normal human being.

If the phrase, "Fight fire with fire" could be used here, you wish to fight fire with teddy bears, hugs, and moral superiority judgment. These people on the Internet don't respond to that. These idiots who make shit up and say idiotic things aren't interested in your positive remarks and your "white-knighting". I prefer to fight fire with a nuclear bomb. Why not squash the problem at its source? I have the very rare talent of actually being able to reach out to these strangers on the Internet and countering them with something that offends them more than anyone they initially attempted to offend. That's what makes me so popular here. I can shut trolls down when others can't and it is usually entertaining at the same time. When someone starts up with the "bad tanks, bad healers, etc", I dig through the charts and find out all the flaws they make and I point them out every single time. I point out every time they stand in fire. I point out their 13th place on the meters. These are how you can actually reach a person, because this insults the person as a player and when you bring up facts, it makes it difficult to respond to that. I may never see that troll again, but he'll have walked away from that raid "the victim" while the rest of the raid laughed at him instead of being "victimized" by him.

And I've seen this "white knighting" term pop up and it's beginning to irritate me. When everything is put to the terms of Immer and his cronies circle-jerking about sticking up for people, it's white-knighting. You're not actually helping anyone. If supporting people and sticking up for what is right and defending people on this forum and in the game is the definition of a white knight, then I am the white knight. You have a join date of 2010. You've barely got two years on this forum. You don't realize that these people aren't my "fan boys" because I entertain them. They're my "fan boys" because I've stuck up for what's right on this board for a decade and I've stuck up for what's right for these people across multiple games for nearly just as long. I stick up for them in real life as well.

For a lot of these people, I'm on a very personal level with them. When you know the same group of people for this long, you get to know them. As an example, Tirael mentioned raiding with me for two years. I think we had a great time together. I energized him to be competitive and push himself to be his very best, not by telling him to do better, but by giving him the environment to do so. I put him in an environment of positively competitive people and it forced him to be better. He was already an amazing player. He'll tell you with 100% confidence that the only thing that separates our group from the people who get world firsts is time, not skill. On the flip side, when he hits a rough spot in his life, I listen. How many people reading this thread have sat on Skype or Vent for several hours talking about personal things in their lives and they came to me because they know I'll give them honest, intelligent advice. I don't give the kind of "do it my way" advice. I am an extension of that person's own mind. I help them explore all the possible conclusions and all the possible options. I help these people on a personal level. You're in a losing position here if you're trying to convince anyone other than your own cronies that I am a bad individual after as long as these people have known me. The readers know it. The posters know it. The moderators know it. Even the site administration know it. I have site staff who tell me on a regular basis that I say what they want to say but they don't say it because it's not appropriate for their role to do so. There are some who will deliberately wait to delete a post of mine until after the intended audience has read it, because they know its right even if its not appropriate to keep on the board. The mods/site admins can only nuke posts and control punishment based on the frequency of how often they have to moderate posts. What can do they do against a person who is causing problems but isn't swearing, insulting, etc? What happens when a person hands out blatantly wrong advice? Moderators don't control that. This is where myself and others step in. We shut down bullshit wherever we see it. We don't allow forum-cancer to manifest itself here. People like myself are the reason why you enjoy posting here and despise places like WoW General Forums. The moderators only do so much. We weed out the rest.

Everyone here knows that I attack the post, not the individual. I attack an idea, not a person. This is a difficult concept for people to understand. Unless you personally wrong me (which is nearly impossible to do), I'm going to weigh your actions based on their own actions. It is how I can simultaneously thank you and look up to you for advice regarding Heirlooms while shutting down and disregarding your thoughts on Internet conduct. Most of the time when a person is full of a handful of bad ideas, they're full of a bunch and they get targeted often. Savious was an example of someone who was flinging bullshit for quite a while. He wised up and you notice that he was actually able to contribute to this forum and no one harasses him. He joined our loose-knit gaming community when Diablo 3 came out.

This isn't my first rodeo. You're not the first person to try and confront me and tell me that the way I conduct business is wrong. You're not the first person to try and tell me that I'm morally bankrupt. The rest of the people here know the truth. Your future posts dictate whether you survive on these forums, or if you get flamed into oblivion and eventually stop logging in. You'll either learn how to operate on these forums within a no-bullshit tolerance zone, or you're going to have a very rough time here and eventually stop logging in like everyone else who has tried.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

I wrote you off a while back, Arch. As you often put it, I'm not trying to change you, just showing others what I see in you. I called you out the Holocaust comment, and refuted your notion that no one can get hurt on the interwebs.

Beyond that, you represent the antithesis of how I conduct myself online. I don't know the guy behind Archivis See Profile, but I do know Archivis's posts, and they reflect consistently poor character. I use that fact to reach out readers who might not be regular posters. You are a useful villain, nothing more.

When you want to talk WoW, I'm all ears. Everything else is fart-jokes for your cronies. Good thing you have very thick skin, bra.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Immer

I often equate bullying as a persistent attack, either physically or verbally. Most folks you see in LFR will never be seen again. It is this reason that many act selfishly and childish. LFR was envisioned as a great way for people like myself (can't commit to raiding schedule due to rl) to be able to enjoy a glimpse of end-game content. The unfortunate thing is that due anonymity of players and unlikelihood of ever playing together again, many try to take advantage anyway they can.

VK to those that roll same tokens (previous versions) or same class, as well as just being unfriendly is why LFR had to be changed this expansion. Is it better? I can't say as I can't stay long enough to level to 90. Is it bullying? No. Being a jerk/troll and a bully are different, and random dick-moves can seriously suck. (BS VK after a 1 hour wait in queue for example.) Either way, /ignore is there for a reason. Griefing is different, and while I don't consider it bullying, I consider it poor taste, and a dick move while I am envisioning a poor social inept loser at the other end. And tbh, this is where PVP and PVE servers come into play.
--
Goggalor: "Freedom of speech is not freedom of asshattery."



stonhinge
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS

1 recommendation

reply to Archivis

said by Archivis:

You somehow think that a person you've never met and will never see again within a time window of 15-90 minutes is going to somehow find a way to personally touch your soul.

There are both good ways and bad ways to "personally touch someone's soul". Yes, the good way can take longer. You can do it the bad way in one sentence. I have one guildmate who will either flat out tear someone a new one, or totally shut down if someone ever mentions "raping" a boss/instance. They're joking, but for her and others who have been through something like that, it's not funny at all. The rampant use of the word "gay" is another thing that tends to set some of us off. (To which my normal replay is, "No, that wasn't gay. If it were gay I'd have felt much better after it was over.")

The OP - and Immer - put forth the statement that we don't have to play with hateful, ignorant douchebags.

By "fighting fire with a nuclear bomb", as you put it, you reinforce the thought that it's okay to be mean to relative/complete strangers. While you may be good at it, other will attempt to copy you at varying degrees of success, which doesn't fix anything. You still end up with people being hateful.

Immer and I - and the Daily Blink - aren't fighting "with teddy bears, hugs, and moral superiority judgment." We're just trying to get people to accept the notion that one does not have to put up with idiots who say potentially hateful things. Usually because the people who get hurt by it are generally too scared or embarrassed to speak up. Go ahead and call it white-knighting. I'd rather be known for that as opposed to being lumped in with the group that simply stood and did nothing.

said by Archivis:

When someone starts up with the "bad tanks, bad healers, etc", I dig through the charts and find out all the flaws they make and I point them out every single time. I point out every time they stand in fire. I point out their 13th place on the meters. These are how you can actually reach a person, because this insults the person as a player and when you bring up facts, it makes it difficult to respond to that.

This is a completely different issue. While it may be related, it doesn't solve the original problem of the speaker being hateful. I'd rather play with people who aren't jerks, instead of the jerk who tries to fix the problem of his DPS/healing.
--
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.


Arthritis

join:2011-10-20
Canada

1 recommendation

reply to Archivis

said by Archivis:

Was my post inappropriate? Of course. Am I going to apologize? No, I'm making a point about developing thick skin with people on the Internet.

You would have proved your point a lot better if you had of not responded at all, or felt the need to respond.

The fact that you do feel this need means perhaps you should work on developing your own thick skin with people on the internet questioning your morals and motives.

I'll leave you with this...

"To vilify a great man is the readiest way in which a little man can himself attain greatness." - Edgar Allan Poe

I've watched you vilify man a great man on these boards, and it's really quite sad. I genuinely feel sorry for you on many levels, as your words are most often a cry for help and classic narcissism.

I will resist further comments.

In keeping with Poe, "Nevermore..."

Jodokast

join:2012-05-10
reply to Immer

+1


Jodokast

join:2012-05-10
reply to Immer

this im 100% in agreement with.


Jodokast

join:2012-05-10
reply to Archivis

you have offended me personally by your tasteless comment. how you "troll" is not excusable behavior and there are punishments for saying such offensive language and attitude. Since you say you dont care how much you offend others, i wonder why a moderator hasnt taken action against you.



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

I guess it is difficult to convince everyone that being offended by an anonymous person on the Internet is nearly impossible when multiple freshly-registered members continue to come in and tell me how deeply offended they are.

But if my posts cause you to weep into a bowl of cereal, call your mother, seek therapy, cause you to lash out at your pets, or cause you to get an STD, there is a "hey mods" button.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK



Blockfire
Sarcasm is my native tongue

join:2010-02-11
Wichita, KS
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
reply to Immer

said by Immer:

said by Blockfire:

If you're* too sensitive to have people saying inflammatory things, you shouldn't be playing the game,

That's a cop-out. It is what worthless people use to absolve him/herselves of wrong doing.

here is my problem with your argument. It's the same logic your "cyber bullies" use, they think their opinions/thoughts outweigh all others.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

1 recommendation

said by Blockfire:

said by Immer:

said by Blockfire:

If you're* too sensitive to have people saying inflammatory things, you shouldn't be playing the game,

That's a cop-out. It is what worthless people use to absolve him/herselves of wrong doing.

here is my problem with your argument. It's the same logic your "cyber bullies" use, they think their opinions/thoughts outweigh all others.

That's fair... but such a distillation of logic ends up applying to all people, doesn't it? I mean, if you believed your opinion/thought was inferior to someone else's... wouldn't you just adopt their view? Judge me by my words and actions... I can take it. My logic drives me to protect the abused and rebuke the abuser.

My rebuke to you should be kept in context. I have been specifically addressing abusive behavior. I'm not rebuking you for defending the right to tell a crude joke, or call someone out for having low dps, or spending too much time dpsing the floor tiles. Abuse. "can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" is a fun cliche when you're trying to "pump someone up"... it's not appropriate to say to someone who really got hurt by something you said/did.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
Premium
join:2000-09-20
DFW
kudos:2

If someone is offended or hurt/upset by something that an individual has said, that's their problem. Good or bad, accept it and move on.



Blockfire
Sarcasm is my native tongue

join:2010-02-11
Wichita, KS
kudos:1
reply to Immer

I am judging you by your reaction to my post. You called it worthless which is exactly what the people you are extolling against do. I see no difference between it. How can u talk about this issue while reacting exactly as they do?



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

1 edit

said by Blockfire:

I am judging you by your reaction to my post. You called it worthless which is exactly what the people you are extolling against do. I see no difference between it. How can u talk about this issue while reacting exactly as they do?

because you came to the defense of the abuser. The argument "if you can't take it you shouldn't have been playing the game" does nothing for the abused, yet it absolves the abuser of wrongdoing.

edit: I'm not a passivist. I am much more comfortable risking offending the abuser (or getting attacked myself) than I am letting the abused go undefended.

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to Immer

I simply play this and other games to have fun. If others have fun because they have come into contact with me, great if not oh well. I do not to try to be nicer in any game than I am in real life and with the exception of a few occasion in EVE I am never meaner.
In raids or group finder I usually don't think much if some one says great tanking nor do I worry if they say I'm bad. It is what it is and at the end of it I still play to have fun, not to make friends.
I came to WOW after SWG got NGED, my server choice and the fact that I started playing WOW was based on a group of people that I had never met in RL but had played a game with for a couple years. No of us knew any of the other's names in real life.
People are mean, people are nice. In WOW and everywhere, at the end of the day you can't change that, you can only be the person you are. If who you are makes some one have a better or worse day it may effect how they treat the next person they come in contact with. Don't worry about what other people do, after all the only one you can control is you.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by jofos:

after all the only one you can control is you.

agreed.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Jodokast

said by Jodokast:

you have offended me personally by your tasteless comment

Wow. I like this little fantasy reality we have going--it's ok to grief people until they log-off in frustration, but you get personally offended by a comment on the internet somewhere.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
reply to Jodokast

i was on stonemaul for all of wotlk, never heard of you. i was in final ascension and schizm guilds.
--
If you find the information in my post helpful or interesting, please throw me a Kudos. Thanks!



mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to Immer

Occassionally, I like to join LFR just piss people off. If I've done LFR and gotten what I need for the week, I'll still requeue just say retarded shit in /ra. I have been that intentional asshole and gotten a few complainers kicked from raid.

Job done. Street cred defended.
--
If you find the information in my post helpful or interesting, please throw me a Kudos. Thanks!



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

said by mettachain:

Job done. Street cred defended.

Well shit. We do have asshats on DSLR.

»i.imgur.com/JpIvY.gif
(gotta click)
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

Threatco

join:2011-04-19
Moncton, NB
reply to Immer

My arguement is simple.

We have a different definitions of abuse.

My definition does not allow for any typed material communicated over WoW client from strangers who don't know me to be considered abuse.

Abuse is wiping the group on purpose or through horrible performance or psting me my address and saying he will kill me.

Anything else is not abuse. Because the client give you easy options to filter out such material. And the game warns "Game Experience May Change During Online Play".

Well, when your online and your game experience changes, I don't find it right to call it abuse. It's like a girl caught a guy looking at her butt and calls it rape. It's just the wrong word. It may be rude. It may be inappropriate. But it's not abuse or rape.

I am rambling. I love you man. I really do. I just like to argue my boring point. thank you for your time



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

said by mettachain:

Job done. Street cred defended.

Well shit. We do have asshats on DSLR.

»i.imgur.com/JpIvY.gif
(gotta click)

love that animated (totally safe for work) gif... I had a chuckle.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.