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userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA

[Anveo] Anveo, please clarify your 911 handling

Anveo, I would appreciate clarification regarding the questions I posed in this thread:

»Porting to Anveo or Voip.ms

Your web site says: "Multiple addresses can be configured however, only one address can be selected as a current address. The current address will be sent to the local E911 center when emergency call is placed."

If this is technically, literally correct, it indicates that you are using the method Nitzan recommended against.

Please clarify.

Thank you.


Arne Bolen
Happy Anveo customer
Premium
join:2009-06-21
Cyberspace
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Anveo
·voip.ms
said by userofdsl:

only one address can be selected as a current address. The current address will be sent to the local E911 center when emergency call is placed."

Each user account can only have one address as current address. You can't send several addresses to your PSAP as it is very unlikely your emergency is taken place at different locations at the same time.
--
My VoIP News

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
I don't think that was the poster's question, I believe he is specifically (as indicated in that thread) asking how the address information is conveyed to the E911 service provider when a call is placed. And, more to the point, what happens if that fails for whatever reason.

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA
said by AVonGauss:

I don't think that was the poster's question, I believe he is specifically (as indicated in that thread) asking how the address information is conveyed to the E911 service provider when a call is placed. And, more to the point, what happens if that fails for whatever reason.

That's correct.

According to Nitzan's description, sending address data to the 911 provider when the call is placed, which is what Anveo's web site says happens, means that a new record is being created at that time, which Nitzan says is problematic. If a record was created upon user set-up and already exists, only the phone number would be sent when the call is placed, which is the non-problematic method.

If Anveo uses the method Nitzan doesn't recommend and disagrees with Nitzan and wishes to explain why that method is OK, fine. I would simply like a response from Anveo on this issue concerning this important telephone service.


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to userofdsl
When you setup your Anveo Account Profile, there is a box where you enter the address that gets sent when a 911 call is made. The address is validated and stored. You can enter multiple 911 addresses, each one is validated and stored. Only one of these can be selected to be the active 911 address for the account profile. The address selected as active is the one sent to the PSAP with the unique temporary number when a 911 call is placed.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
reply to userofdsl
Maybe it would help if you recap in this thread the part in the other thread that is leading to your question in this one. I'd be curious to hear the answer myself, its an interesting way of handling E911 if they've got the potential gap figured out.

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA

2 edits
said by AVonGauss:

Maybe it would help if you recap in this thread the part in the other thread that is leading to your question in this one.

Here is some of the relevant dialog thus far:

rsriram22:
"Anveo does not send your CID to 911 when 911 calls are made(they send some hidden/temporary DID"

userofdsl:
"This is surprising and I am concerned."

crazyk4952:
"No need to be concerned. Callcentric actually does the same thing."

userofdsl:
"I can see the advantage of sending out something other than the usual caller ID, but rather a new one that always reaches the SIP device.

"For example, in a medical emergency at 11 PM, with Anveo call flow or Callcentric call treatments set to direct all calls after 10 PM to voicemail, if the dispatcher has to call back, they will get through."

anveo:
"This is exactly the reason (legal liability) why we do this. Most business users and even some residential users have Call Flows configured to route calls based on the time ('Business Hours' Call Flow item) or other advanced call handling options and we have to make sure that callbacks from 911 emergency personnel will ALWAYS ring back SIP device which initiated 911 call."

nitzan:
"A little insider information here: E911 providers bill VOIP providers based on the number of CIDs configured by those VOIP providers. By dynamically creating and assigning a special CID to your account when E911 is dialed a VOIP provider can avoid paying the E911 provider the service fees for your account until you actually dial 911. Aside from cheating their E911 provider, a provider doing this adds an extra risk because the temporary DID needs to first provision to the E911 provider's database in real time while you wait on the line, and only then they can complete the 911 call. If the E911 provider's website is down or another error occurs your 911 call will fail.

"I am not saying this is what CallCentric and Anveo are doing - they may not be. An indication is what happens when you setup your E911 on the provider's website - if it gives you your correct geo location and confirms the address has been submitted correctly you're probably fine. If it doesn't do that then your address is not in the E911 database and the provider is using cheap tricks which may add an extra point of failure in a time of emergency.

"Another indication is if the provider dynamically sets up a temporary CID when you call E911 (as opposed to keeping a dedicated permanent one in their database for you) - setting up a temporary CID essentially means they have to first dynamically provision this DID to the E911 provider via their website's API, and only when and if this is successful your 911 call will complete. Not something I'd want to rely on in time of need.

"Again- not knocking CC or Anveo - I don't know their back end processes, but users should definitely avoid any provider that dynamically creates a database entry with the E911 provider when they place a 911 call because 1. It's dishonest, and 2. It's an extra potential point of failure."

rsriram22:
"CC assigns a 'pre-defined' number vs anveo that assigns an 'on-the-fly' #. this is confirmed from my converstations with CC and anveo - don't know abt other providers..."

userofdsl:
"Then Anveo must be sending a new record when 911 is dialed."

My conclusions thus far:

1. Anveo's 911 apparently is suboptimal for the reasons cited by Nitzan.

2. If one has a provider that does NOT send a special hidden caller ID directly to the SIP device, it is important NOT to use any settings such as not letting calls through at night that might prevent an emergency responder's callback from getting through.

3. The important area of VoIP 911 handling needs much more transparency from providers and awareness by consumers.

Edit: What may be optimal is a special caller ID used only for 911 that will always get through to the SIP device, predefined and in the 911 provider's database. It is possible that Callcentric is doing this; it's not clear. However, with such a special CID, I would like to see total vendor transparency, including documentation of what is going on, and upon-request divulging of the CID. I would write that phone number down in a prominent place, so there would be no confusion if I needed to refer to it during an emergency. Also, I think the ideal situation would be to let the consumer choose between a special CID and a normal one, with disclosure of the risks and proper procedures for the latter.

Iscream
Premium
join:2009-02-17
New York, NY
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

2 recommendations

It's exactly _how_ Callcentric is doing it.

Moreover - this method of doing it had been "standardized" with emergency service registration operators, FCC and CTRC. This is actually why Callcentric is able to service multiple DIDs, from totally different geographic areas, on one account while still allowing a customer to add or remove any DID from their account at any time without any impact on their 911 service.

Callcentric _pays_ additional fee for having a "hidden" DID configured on account record. This hidden DID is registered with emergency service operator - thus causing Callcentric to monthly fees for both the DID itself and the emergency operator's database record.

If customer's E911 record cannot be activated for whatever reason - the customer is notified immediately by e-mails and bold-red line on top of their account's WEB page. The customer MUST communicate with our support to get the 911 registration
issue resolved. Once the registration confirmed - the customer is advised that now their E/911 service is available.

This is why Callcentric charges for E911 service the fee which is by many considered as "high" - because Callcentric pays double for a luxury to have convenience for its customers with their multiple DIDs while it provides the most reliable way of providing the 911 service itself.


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to userofdsl
My suggestion would be to ask Anveo account holders if they have ever dialed 911, or made a 911 Test Call, what the results were.

Without knowing the type of back-end connection Anveo has to their 911 Service Provider, it cannot be accurately determined that their method is more prone to failure than that of any other VOIP provider.

I have not dialed 911, or made a 911 Test Call, but my experience with Anveo over the last 10 months leads me to believe they have a very solid system in place.

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA
If Anveo assigns a phone number on the fly, it is certain that they create a database record on the fly per the information provided by Nitzan, because database records are keyed by phone number, so one could not have preexisted. Anveo has been repeatedly invited to respond.

Documenting results from any Anveo 911 tests people have done would not be statistically meaningful, especially in this situation where even a small percentage of failures could be disastrous, and any avoidable failures, no matter how rare, are unacceptable.

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA
reply to Iscream
Iscream, good to hear that you guys are doing it right.


w8sdz

join:2001-05-21
Port Orange, FL
reply to Iscream
said by Iscream:

It's exactly _how_ Callcentric is doing it.

I have Callcentric service. Last July a member of my family exhibited signs of a stroke so I called 911. The operator who answered asked where the emergency was. I said can't you see that in the caller information on your console? She said no. She asked for the address and the phone number to call back in case of disconnect or follow-up needed. She said she was located at a regional emergency handling facility, not our local police/fire department.

The EMS techs arrived within five minutes, so response was not affected, but I did have to provide all the information that is normally displayed on the 911 operators console. If I had been unable to speak they would not have known who called and the location.

--
73 de w8sdz - sip:w8sdz@getonsip.com - Google+: »plus.google.com/+w8sdz

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA
Sounds horrible. Did you get an explanation from Callcentric, or file a complaint with the FCC?

So far, no providers other than Anveo and Callcentric have been identified that send a hidden caller ID. This can allow more flexibility in user settings, such as stopping night-time calls, without compromising 911, but if the user doesn't know about it and doesn't have the hidden number, or the number is generated on the fly, there can be issues. And apparently there can be other issues.

It is should be fine to send the actual caller ID as long as the user never creates settings on the provider's web portal or the user's phone that block incoming calls at any time or persistently change the caller ID from what the 911 provider has on file.

I am concerned about the 911 issue and will want to be sure that whatever provider I wind up porting to, and whatever backup provider(s) I use, are doing it in a way that will work well, and I will want to be able to test and verify it.

said by w8sdz:

said by Iscream:

It's exactly _how_ Callcentric is doing it.

I have Callcentric service. Last July a member of my family exhibited signs of a stroke so I called 911. The operator who answered asked where the emergency was. I said can't you see that in the caller information on your console? She said no. She asked for the address and the phone number to call back in case of disconnect or follow-up needed. She said she was located at a regional emergency handling facility, not our local police/fire department.

The EMS techs arrived within five minutes, so response was not affected, but I did have to provide all the information that is normally displayed on the 911 operators console. If I had been unable to speak they would not have known who called and the location.



mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
reply to billaustin
said by billaustin:

or make a 911 Test Call

911 & VoIP Facts

13. Can I make a 9-1-1 test call from my VoIP phone?
It depends. Before doing so, please contact your law enforcement agency on their non-emergency line. Confirm that you are in their 9-1-1 jurisdiction and then ask if you can place a test 9-1-1 call. Many 9-1-1 call centers will comply with this request as long as they are not too busy with other emergency calls at the time. They may ask you to place your test call at a certain time.

--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business

rsriram22

join:2006-08-14
Lexington, KY
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·Future Nine Corp..
·localphone.com
reply to w8sdz
said by w8sdz:

I have Callcentric service. Last July a member of my family exhibited signs of a stroke so I called 911. The operator who answered asked where the emergency was. I said can't you see that in the caller information on your console? She said no. She asked for the address and the phone number to call back in case of disconnect or follow-up needed. She said she was located at a regional emergency handling facility, not our local police/fire department.

The EMS techs arrived within five minutes, so response was not affected, but I did have to provide all the information that is normally displayed on the 911 operators console. If I had been unable to speak they would not have known who called and the location.

this is after the fact that you had that 'green' /confirmed status under your E911 status on CC home page? lot needs to be explained here. glad to hear your family member was okay after that episode..

DaveSin

join:2009-07-17
reply to w8sdz
Out of curiosity, did you or your family member ever test e911 before this incidence?

I test my e911 with both Anveo and Voip.ms (two separate locations) on a regular basis (about once per month) and it has always worked. I did notice from my last test with Anveo, that the test call took longer than normal to "setup" the call, i.e, the call did not start ringing immediately after dialing 911 [911S0 and the first item in my Dial Plan].

The other issue I have with Anveo e911 is, although I have City XYZ in my address, when I did the test call, it is showing up as a nearby (larger) City, which happens to share the same Zip Code. I have brought this to Anveo's attention without any resolution. The 911 Operator did say that the incorrect City name could potentially cause some delay in the 911 response.

said by w8sdz:

said by Iscream:

It's exactly _how_ Callcentric is doing it.

I have Callcentric service. Last July a member of my family exhibited signs of a stroke so I called 911. The operator who answered asked where the emergency was. I said can't you see that in the caller information on your console? She said no. She asked for the address and the phone number to call back in case of disconnect or follow-up needed. She said she was located at a regional emergency handling facility, not our local police/fire department.

The EMS techs arrived within five minutes, so response was not affected, but I did have to provide all the information that is normally displayed on the 911 operators console. If I had been unable to speak they would not have known who called and the location.



aopisa

@comcast.net
I have a simple Obi100 set up. GV for all in and out calls on sp1 and Anveo free (.80/month) service for E911 on sp2. I called my local non emergency number to ask If I could test it. They gave me the go ahead to tell the 911 dispatcher it was a non-emergency voip test call. The call went through with no delay dispatcher was able to accurately relay my physical address and a call back number generated by Anveo. I did not test the call back feature.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
I don't think there's doubt it can work, I believe the question was if or how prone it is to failure vs a static assigned number or the actual DID number being relayed.


aopisa

@comcast.net
said by AVonGauss:

I don't think there's doubt it can work, I believe the question was if or how prone it is to failure vs a static assigned number or the actual DID number being relayed.

billaustin said they had not tested it. I was merely providing some information that I had tested it and at least for that instance, it performed as expected.

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to w8sdz
said by w8sdz:

I have Callcentric service. Last July a member of my family exhibited signs of a stroke so I called 911. The operator who answered asked where the emergency was. I said can't you see that in the caller information on your console? She said no. She asked for the address and the phone number to call back in case of disconnect or follow-up needed.

She said she was located at a regional emergency handling facility, not our local police/fire department.

Your city is in Volusia County.

For a long time now, many cities and towns in Volusia County use the Volusia County Sheriff's Office Communications Center for 911 calls to their local police, fire, or EMT services.

Since October of last year, ALL cities and towns in Volusia County use this centralized 911 system.

So that's the way it is [supposed] to be, and is the way more counties are doing it. I think that you implied that it was wrong, whereas that's the way your county does it.

Now, the issue of the name and address should be taken up with CallCentric AND with the Sheriff's Office, for further study. Unfortunately it may be too late by now.

It could be CC fault, or the CC contractor, or the Volusia Sheriff, or someone else, or some combination of things.

Lacking investigation, one should not automatically blame CC.

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA
said by PX Eliezer70:

It could be CC fault, or the CC contractor, or the Volusia Sheriff, or someone else, or some combination of things.

Lacking investigation, one should not automatically blame CC.

Good point.

rsriram22

join:2006-08-14
Lexington, KY
reply to userofdsl
so has this question been answered? as to when the 911 record actually goes into the E911 provider's system ahead in time or when the 911 call is made???

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA

3 edits
said by rsriram22:

so has this question been answered? as to when the 911 record actually goes into the E911 provider's system ahead in time or when the 911 call is made???

You reported that Anveo told you that the hidden phone number is assigned on the fly. Nitzan said that e911 database records are keyed by phone number. That leaves no other possibility than that the database record is created on the fly, since creation of a record requires a phone number.

Edit: Unless they have a pool of records pre-created with dummy contact information, possibly containing information from a previous 911 call, and update a record on the fly. This would be even more error-prone; wrong information is worse than no information, and if it's a limited fixed pool, they could run out of records.

Edit: Is it too much to ask of a VoIP provider to optimally implement a feature of literally life-or-death importance, to ensure its best possible functioning? I think most people would pay a dollar a month more for this.


Anon12345

@comcast.net
Thanks all for this very informative thread. I checked Anveo's Term of Use, and they have terms about penalty on "EXCESSIVE 911 USAGE" of merely "MORE THAN 2 911 CALLS DURING ANY 30 DAYS INTERVAL". I could be wrong, but these terms combined with the possibly lower than cost $0.8 monthly fee, sounds very likely that they are doing the E911 records on the fly. In other words, Anveo users are not paying the actual E911 service subscribing fee, but merely the permit to be able to be hooked up to E911 when in need. It is like you are paying a monthly fee for a non-functional phone line at home but the phone company tells you that your phone line will be ready to hook up if you dial a number thanks to the high tech nowadays. Yeah, in good days, it may take less than one second to create a database record. But 911 is not something prepared for good days. Just look at those solid companies affected or even flapped over during a Category 1 storm. And as nitzan said, it is kind of dishonest to cheat E911 provider. Unless Anveo comes up with a good explanation, I am concerned and will be looking somewhere else.

rsriram22

join:2006-08-14
Lexington, KY
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·Future Nine Corp..
·localphone.com
said by Anon12345 :

..it is kind of dishonest to cheat E911 provider.

i dont know if i (as end user) would be concerned if E911 provider is cheater or not, I'd sure be mad as hell if I am conned.

I d assume E911 provider would black list if they realize that one of their resellers is providing services that is not complying to their "Terms of use"

anveo
Premium
join:2010-02-08
kudos:3
reply to userofdsl
A typical consumer oriented service provider forwards ALL incoming calls to SIP device. I am not sure what kind of call handling (aka call treatments etc.) Future Nine (Nitzan) service offers (if any) and he may not need to worry about special handling of 911 callbacks.

In case of Anveo we provide a very powerful call flow technology which our customers actively use. In more than 80% incoming calls are routed through some sort of IVR Call Flow (auto-attendants, IVR menues, Transfer fallbacks etc) before routing the call to some end point (voicemail, ring group, sub-account, another phone number etc).

We are taking 911 seriously and our legal responsibility to make sure that 911 callbacks are handled properly and will reach the SAME SIP device which initiated 911 call.

All callback phone numbers are registered with E911 service provider and all E911 addresses are validated and verified through E911 service provider.
As Iscream has mentioned such 911 handling had been "standardized" with emergency service operators, FCC and CTRC. Similar to Callcentric such 911 handling allows Anveo users to manage multiple phone numbers in their accounts without impacting emergency service.

Please see a topic from 1 year ago detailing Anveo E911 service »Anveo reinvents 911/Emergency Calling or '5 New Innovations'


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Anon12345
I'm really amazed at you people. You are planning to shun a provider, who has been in business many years, because they won't come here and explain their 911 setup to you? And you accuse them of cheating their 911 provider, based on the explanation of one person, who just happens to be one of their competitors?

VOIP providers are required, by law, to provide you with notice that the 911 service available is not traditional POTS 911 service and is not guaranteed to work. They are also required, by law, to provide you with 911 service. Anveo provides a low-cost 911 service, and has a reputation for being a quality provider.

If 911 Service is that important to you, then get a POTS line. Otherwise, do like everyone else, pick a provider and throw the dice.

userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA

1 recommendation

reply to anveo
Anveo, thank you for your response.

Can you please address the specific concerns raised in this thread?

DaveSin

join:2009-07-17
reply to billaustin
I agree with you totally!! What we have here are a few individuals who are obsessed with a certain topic and are adept at beating a dead horse. These individuals typically use very few minutes and expect a provider to attend to their every needs, yet they use GV as their main provider and want to spend less than $1 per month for e911, demanding that a provider rep cater to their obsession. They so happen to repeat this obsessive behavior on the OBihai blog in order to satisfy their self-importance......troll alert!!

said by billaustin:

I'm really amazed at you people. You are planning to shun a provider, who has been in business many years, because they won't come here and explain their 911 setup to you? And you accuse them of cheating their 911 provider, based on the explanation of one person, who just happens to be one of their competitors?

VOIP providers are required, by law, to provide you with notice that the 911 service available is not traditional POTS 911 service and is not guaranteed to work. They are also required, by law, to provide you with 911 service. Anveo provides a low-cost 911 service, and has a reputation for being a quality provider.

If 911 Service is that important to you, then get a POTS line. Otherwise, do like everyone else, pick a provider and throw the dice.


userofdsl

join:2000-07-31
Brighton, MA

2 edits
.