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Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC

Cat5/Cat6...... Phone/DSL install

I am replacing the phone lines with some cat5/cat6 since they are really,really old.I already have the wire,so why not.

I am going to run separate wires to each room. Two rooms just need phone,but the other needs to be phone and DSL.Not sure how I should go about wiring it up. I don't want to run 4 wires outside to the NID. I want to just run one main wire form the NID into the crawlspace to some sort of panel,block,etc. I have 110 punch downs to terminate RJ45 and RJ11 jacks for the wall plates(keystone).

Would a 66 block work? Even though the cable is cat5/6,not sure it really matters with DSL speeds.Any suggestions are appreciated.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

If you aren't going to run individual wires for each outlet, then upgrading to cat5/cat6 won't do squat because you won't be able to convert them to network wiring in the future.

At this point you gotta ask yourself this: Why would you even bother? Are you trying to get a better signal quality for the DSL? Why are you trying to get a better signal at the DSL? Is it losing the connection often? If so, have you tried the DSL to be at the NID to see if the connection stabilized? If it doesn't stabilize, you have other issues.

edit - To go further on the DSL signal quality, you need to find out whether or not you already get the speed you're supposed to get. Either in the DSL's config page where you see the stats and sync speed, or a DSL diagnostic tool that gets the sync speed. If the sync speed matches what you should get from your ISP, then you're okay and don't need anything more.



nunya
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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reply to Gigabyte2004

You never want a punchdown block in a crawl space. They are usually nasty, humid, and full of cobwebs. Not only that, but they suck to get in. Locate the splice in a civilized area.
Most 66 blocks these days are Cat5 rated. Cat5 is overkill for DSL signal anyway (though it makes no sense to buy cat3 these days). Your inside wiring is just a drop in the bucket. That DSL signal travels of miles of non-cat cable to get to your house.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC
reply to alkizmo

The reason for replacing the wire is that the phones do have a little static in them and the phone company says that there line tests are ok. They say its the inside wiring. This seems to cause the DSL to drop every now and then. After checking the stats on my modem,I am showing some noise in the lines for the DSL.
Since I have cat5/6 already from other projects,I figured I would just use it and replace all of it.

As for speeds I am supposed to get 3.0 down and 384 up. My speed tests vary from 2.2dn/.30 up to 2.6dn/.33 up. My speed seems to be where it should be.



llort

@rogers.com
reply to Gigabyte2004

You can do that but I agree with the other replies about not using 66 punchdown unless you know it won't get wet there. Also you should use a pots splitter to get the best possible signal to your modem. Use one pair from the nid to a Pots Splitter in the crawlspace then branch off from there.


Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC
reply to Gigabyte2004

So a POTS splitter would allow me to have a dedicated line to the DSL and then be able to branch off of it for phone? Links to what I should be using?

I say crawlspace,but there is more than enough room to get to it if needed.As for it getting wet,that won't be a problem.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by Gigabyte2004:

So a POTS splitter would allow me to have a dedicated line to the DSL and then be able to branch off of it for phone?

If I am not mistaken, a POTS splitter is just a DSL line filter, but at the NID, so all the phones on the voice side of the splitter are filtered at the NID (instead of having a filter for every phone).

So you need two wires at the POTS splitter.

If the noise issue happens when someone is using the phone (voice) then you probably have a filter problem.

What I would do is put a POTS splitter at the nid, put the existing house wiring on the voice side and run a new CAT5/CAT6 line from the data side of the splitter to the room with DSL. You'd only need to run one new wire to one room.

Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC
reply to Gigabyte2004

I assume that this is what I need?
»www.amazon.com/SUTTLE-SE-649A1-O···0171AJXY
So I can just take the phone wires that I have now and run them to one side and the dedicated (new) DSL line to the other? then I can also get rid of the dsl filters at the phone jacks?



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to Gigabyte2004

said by Gigabyte2004:

The reason for replacing the wire is that the phones do have a little static in them and the phone company says that there line tests are ok. They say its the inside wiring. This seems to cause the DSL to drop every now and then. After checking the stats on my modem,I am showing some noise in the lines for the DSL.
Since I have cat5/6 already from other projects,I figured I would just use it and replace all of it.

As for speeds I am supposed to get 3.0 down and 384 up. My speed tests vary from 2.2dn/.30 up to 2.6dn/.33 up. My speed seems to be where it should be.

Take you a plain old telephone and plug it into your NID. I bet you have static there also.

The Telco told me that too. Time and time again but it was always in their lines to the house. We had static, hum and distortion, Old underground system. I switched to Verizon Home Connect wireless and disconnected the hard wired system. Works very well.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to Gigabyte2004

said by Gigabyte2004:

I assume that this is what I need?
»www.amazon.com/SUTTLE-SE-649A1-O···0171AJXY
So I can just take the phone wires that I have now and run them to one side and the dedicated (new) DSL line to the other? then I can also get rid of the dsl filters at the phone jacks?

check with your provider, here in canukistan Ma Bell gives pots splitters for free

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to Gigabyte2004

said by Gigabyte2004:

I assume that this is what I need?
»www.amazon.com/SUTTLE-SE-649A1-O···0171AJXY
So I can just take the phone wires that I have now and run them to one side and the dedicated (new) DSL line to the other? then I can also get rid of the dsl filters at the phone jacks?

check with your provider, here in canukistan Ma Bell gives pots splitters for free and will even send a tech to install it


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
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reply to alkizmo


Splitter vs inline filter
said by alkizmo:

If I am not mistaken, a POTS splitter is just a DSL line filter, but at the NID, so all the phones on the voice side of the splitter are filtered at the NID

True a whole house splitter eliminates the need to put an inline filter at each non-DSL device. But depending on the specific device there are some other benefits.

Whole house splitter may be a multistage passive filter vs the single stage used for inline filters. A multstage filter does a better job isolating Voice from DSL. I use a Siecor/Corning splitter as a plus it includes a half-ringer test circuit after the filter. This allows the one in the NID to be removed. ADSL was designed to work in the presence of a half-ringer but if your signal is marginal every little bit helps. The splitter also has built in secondary over voltage protection.

I think Tii Network Tech is making it now.
»tiinetworktechnologies.com/repos···1211.pdf

Regardless of what you install it is always a good idea to plug your DSL modem directly into the NID test jack and compare stats with modem at its normal location. That will tell you if inside wiring is degrading performance. Whole house splitter does a better job of isolating voice from DSL but there are some impairments it cannot correct.

As Jack_in_VA See Profile posted it is always a good idea to perform another test. Plug a phone directly into the test jack. If you hear static, especially when phone is first picked up or crosstalk, other voices call voice repair.

/tom

medbuyer

join:2003-11-20
kudos:4
reply to Gigabyte2004

something like this inside your NID..



look at the top row with that red wire sticking out [was doing some tests]...that's a Tii dsl splitter...

orange / orange white pair is dsl circuit going inside the house...

blue / blue white is voice pair going inside the house...

you can terminate that dsl circuit pair to telephone junction box and connect your modem directly.


Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC
reply to Gigabyte2004

»tiinetworktechnologies.com/repos···1211.pdf

That is actuallly the same one I saw on ebay for $20.

I checked the wires at the NID and found one of the wires had a screw that wasn't completely tight.I tightened it up and the slight static that was there,seems to be gone.Not sure that was actually the problem or not.

I'll try to find a phone cord long enough to hook my modem to the NID and see what my speeds are.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by Gigabyte2004:

I'll try to find a phone cord long enough to hook my modem to the NID and see what my speeds are.

The speeds you posted before seem normal for 3000kbs download sync. DSL always has a loss for overhead.

The issue you need to observe is the loss of connection.

Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC
reply to Gigabyte2004

Click for full size
My NID is a little different from others I have seen. Looks like I would need to do the whole house instead of just a splitter.


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12

That's one FUBAR nid. I can tell you this, your line is unbalanced.


Gigabyte2004

join:2004-09-12
Morganton, NC

Anything else I can do besides add a POTS? The black wire on the right is the main line coming in.
That's one reason I was going to just rewire everything. Atleast it would look a little cleaner.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

. Cat5 is overkill for DSL signal anyway (though it makes no sense to buy cat3 these days). Your inside wiring is just a drop in the bucket. That DSL signal travels of miles of non-cat cable to get to your house.

I've wondered about the logic of spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars inside the house when the crap phone service to the house negates all of it. It can never be any better than what's coming in.


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
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1 edit
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

That's one FUBAR nid. I can tell you this, your line is unbalanced.

To expand a little on nunya See Profile somewhat cryptic post you have a NID that can be configured for one or two phone lines. Currently only one line is installed.

You indicated the black wire off the the right is the drop into the house. There are four other cables. One of which should be ground, usually Grey but I don't know if that is a regional thing.

That leaves three inside cables so one would expect 3 Red (Ring) wires and 3 Green (Tip) wires connected to the customer premise equipment (CPE) terminals. I only see 5 wires.

Phone lines are balanced relative to ground to prevent hum. Screwed up inside wiring is has to be really bad to mess up voice but DSL is much more sensitive to unbalance.

So the first step is to fix your existing inside wiring. A splitter is not going to help resolve and unbalanced line.

I agree Cat5e is overkill but it makes since to use Cat5e for phone wiring since it is the same prices at Cat3 and allows the possibility of converting phone line to Ethernet drop in the future.

If your inside wiring is twisted pair of any flavor there is no sense in replacing it. Judging from your picture house is wired with quad-four cable that is not twisted. That is vulnerable to crosstalk but is not an issue in your case since you only have one line.

Priority should be:
1) Check stats at NID compared to normal DSL modem location
2) With phone connected to NID test jack evaluate voice quality
3) Fix unbalanced pair
3) If DSL stats are better with modem connected to NID install a splitter with dedicated run to modem location using twisted pair cable.
4) If after doing all that and modem stats are still better at the NID test jack than normal location disconnect all non-DSL equipment from line. If stats are still bad replace phone wiring. It is very unlikely you will need to do step 4.

/tom

brianiscool

join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL
kudos:1
reply to Gigabyte2004

You will not see a drastic improvement, but the cost is not much of a difference. Go for CAT6 at least you will reduce a tiny bit of latency. If you want to not upgrade for decades go for CAT7 I think it can handle 10Gbps.



nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12


Go for CAT6 at least you will reduce a tiny bit of latency.

How's that?
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
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1 recommendation

reply to tschmidt

I think I see the "issue". It looks like somebody broke the ring wire off of the terminal and just wrapped it around the screw rather than replacing the module.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


brianiscool

join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to nunya

Category 6 cable, commonly referred to as Cat 6, is a cable standard for Gigabit Ethernet and other network physical layers that is backward compatible with the Category 5/5e and Category 3 cable standards. Compared with Cat 5 and Cat 5e, Cat 6 features more stringent specifications for crosstalk and system noise. The cable standard provides performance of up to 250 MHz and is suitable for 10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX (Fast Ethernet), 1000BASE-T/1000BASE-TX (Gigabit Ethernet) and 10GBASE-T (10-Gigabit Ethernet).

Whereas Category 6 cable has a reduced maximum length when used for 10GBASE-T; Category 6a cable, or Augmented Category 6, is characterized to 500 MHz and has improved alien crosstalk characteristics, allowing 10GBASE-T to be run for the same distance as previous protocols.


medbuyer

join:2003-11-20
kudos:4
reply to Gigabyte2004

I would go the other way around...

I'd call you telco and request that your NID be swapped with a newer version with a dsl splitter inside just like what I posted.

From there, do a home run for your dsl line and voice pair. Connect modem to dsl junction box [without splitters since it's been split already at the NID] and phone to voice junction box.

Observe if you still have an issue...if yes, then a whole house re-wire is your next step. If not, then the new NID coupled with the homeruns solved your issue. Up to you if you still want to do a whole house re-wire..



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to brianiscool

said by brianiscool:

You will not see a drastic improvement, but the cost is not much of a difference. Go for CAT6 at least you will reduce a tiny bit of latency. If you want to not upgrade for decades go for CAT7 I think it can handle 10Gbps.

How is that going to be accomplished? Remember the limiting factor is the POTS for DSL service to the house.


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12

1 recommendation

reply to brianiscool

I'm quite aware of what Cat6 is, thank you very much. I've even installed a few feet in my time. Please explain how it will decrease latency.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


brianiscool

join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL
kudos:1

CAT6e can handle more bandwidth and travels at a higher MHZ band.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 edit

said by brianiscool:

CAT6e can handle more bandwidth and travels at a higher MHZ band.

Bandwidth has nothing to do with latency.
Frequency, while affecting latency, isn't going to change just because you use Cat6 (And even then you wouldn't even get 0.0000001ms reduction in latency for 100 feet run).

I can have a 1000000 BAZILLION gigabyte connection and have 5 hours latency.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to brianiscool

said by brianiscool:

CAT6e can handle more bandwidth and travels at a higher MHZ band.

And what is the source of this 10 Gbbs? What does bandwidth have to do with Latency?