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Kardinal
Dei Gratina Regina
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join:2001-02-04
N of 49th

Kardinal to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0

Re: where do I get my winter tired put on?

said by dirtyjeffer0:

i did some further googling and from what i can see, this line is bullshit (as i suspected)..

Easy there fella. You're reading a bias in that isn't there, and taking a turn I didn't say (which I hope is just a misunderstanding, and not a tangent to try and deflect away from the point I'm making to satisfy your own stance). I'm not comparing Michelin Defender vs Brand X house tire. It's a difference between the Goodyear Eagle RS-As that my car came with and the Eagle RS-As that I would buy at a tire place to replace them. Same name, same tread pattern, but not the same tire. OEM and replacement tires are NOT the same thing most of the time, especially on cars that aren't uber expensive. In fact, they are quite different in terms of wear quality, length of life, and grip due to different rubber compounds etc.

I'm not slamming Costco, I'm pointing out a possible reason why their tires are less expensive than other places selling at tire with the same name. My research is based on talking with people who work at dealers, aftermarket mod shops, tire retailers and the aforementioned former Costco worker (all of whom are known to me personally, not people I'm talking to across a counter and I've never met before). This isn't a 10 minute Internet search, it's numerous conversations over time with people in the industry that neither you nor I work in.

You can call it bullshit if you like....that's your affair.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

i don't know about Goodyear, but i am pretty sure all major brands are the same...in the case of Michelin, if it is a Michelin Defender Tire, it is a Michelin Defender tire, regardless of where you purchase it...there are OEM tires that are only available to the manufacturer (replacements through the dealer network), but they aren't available for sale through regular retail distribution networks, and would have their own name on them (they wouldn't have the same name)...this has been confirmed from information directly from Michelin...again, possibly Goodyear is different, but i highly doubt it.

come to think of it, i know someone at the plant...i will send them an email and let you know what i find out.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to Kardinal

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to Kardinal
said by Kardinal:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

i did some further googling and from what i can see, this line is bullshit (as i suspected)..

Easy there fella. You're reading a bias in that isn't there,... You can call it bullshit if you like....that's your affair.

I'll have to concur with DJ. I've never heard of this as well.

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
Premium Member
join:2004-02-16

koira

Premium Member

said by peterboro:

said by Kardinal:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

i did some further googling and from what i can see, this line is bullshit (as i suspected)..

Easy there fella. You're reading a bias in that isn't there,... You can call it bullshit if you like....that's your affair.

I'll have to concur with DJ. I've never heard of this as well.

use of the term OEM may refer to same brand/model /size as comes from the factory. All tires should carry a UTQGS rating that shows wear and temperature range. As long as you refer to those ratings, you will know what you are fitting

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by Kardinal:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

i did some further googling and from what i can see, this line is bullshit (as i suspected)..

Easy there fella. You're reading a bias in that isn't there,... You can call it bullshit if you like....that's your affair.

I'll have to concur with DJ. I've never heard of this as well.

I think it's his use of the label "OEM" which might be throwing us off since it's not a term used in that industry.

Whether he intended it or not, the way he conveyed it made it seems like he's alleging these tire installers are selling 'forged' tires, selling non-Michelin tires as Michelin and basically ripping people off.

Kardinal
Dei Gratina Regina
Mod
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th

Kardinal

Mod

said by urbanriot:

I think it's his use of the label "OEM" which might be throwing us off since it's not a term used in that industry.

Whether he intended it or not, the way he conveyed it made it seems like he's alleging these tire installers are selling 'forged' tires, selling non-Michelin tires as Michelin and basically ripping people off.

FFS.....again, no I'm saying no such thing.

(note: I do understand OEM = original equipment from manufacturer ie/ the tires the car came with)

Tire manufacturers make more than one version of a given model, with different compounds which result in different wear / mileage / handling characteristics. Goodyear / Michelin / Firestone / whatever, and build a version specifically for new cars that the manufacturers use. The version that is sold "after market" is a different one with, generally speaking, a higher quality compound which results in higher wear rankings and a longer lasting tire with as good or better driving characteristics. It also means the ones made for the car manufacturers can be made less expensively, which saves the car company money in the build process.

I used Goodyear RS-As as an example because that's what my car came with, not because it's only Goodyear that does this and "Michelin is Michelin is Michelin no matter where it comes from". This isn't about trying to claim tires are 'forged', or fakes, or anything of the sort. I thought the explanation was pretty straight-forward, but it seems that all sorts of things are being read into it so I'll try and summarize it simply:

1) Tire manufacturers build tires for car companies to use on new cars
2) These tires are often made using different compounds from those used for the exact same tire (brand/name/size) that is sold on the regular market
3) These differences in compounds can affect performance and wear
4) The differences in compounds can also affect price
5) Through conversations with people in the automotive industry, I've found Costco sells tires that can be the car company 'level' of tire rather than the common market one, which may account for the difference in price (as well as their lower markup, as DJ asserted upthread).

Izzat clearer now?

dirtyjeffer0
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London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to urbanriot

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to urbanriot
no, what is implied is (in this case) a Goodyear Eagle RS-A tire available from from Honda or Active Green and Ross (examples) and the Goodyear Eagle RS-A tires available from Costco (or even Wal-Mart, if they sell it) are different. In the case of Michelin, there is no such thing. The tires of the same name are identical regardless of where you buy them. There is no "premium" version of the same name sold through Active Green and Ross and the ones sold at Costco or Wal-Mart are inferior. I deal with all the major tire companies, so I sent an email to one of my contacts at Goodyear. I'm thinking about sending one to Bridgestone as well, but that might be rather redundant.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to Kardinal

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to Kardinal
said by Kardinal:

Izzat clearer now?

i interpreted exactly what you mentioned, and i don't think that is correct.

i will confirm when i get a reply about the Goodyear ones, but a Michelin tire with whatever name is on it (Primacy, Alpin, Defender, etc) is exactly the same regardless of where it comes from...it is possible there could be a "manufacturer exclusive", but they don't make different versions of their tires with the same name...so, if your car came with Michelin Defenders, the Defenders purchased from the dealership, Costco, Wal-Mart or OK Tire are all identical...as i said before, it is possible your Honda car may come with (example) a set of Michelin TourForce tires, which are only available through the dealer as they are the models the manufacturer put on (the tires made specifically for that car based on Honda's requirements)...but if Michelin TourForce tires were purchased anywhere else, they too would be identical...there is no "low quality Defender" tires or "premium quality Defender" tires...i am pretty sure companies like Bridgestone and Goodyear are the same.
peterboro (banned)
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to Kardinal

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said by Kardinal:

Tire manufacturers make more than one version of a given model, with different compounds which result in different wear / mileage / handling characteristics. Goodyear / Michelin / Firestone / whatever, and build a version specifically for new cars that the manufacturers use.

Considering they make thousands of tires and deal with numerous auto manufacturers that doesn't sound like a realistic scenario from an economic standpoint for manufactures to have different tires to save a few bucks per tire.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by Kardinal:

Izzat clearer now?

Yes, it seemed too obvious that you'd be pointing out what's too obvious. "Tire Model 1234 from Company ABC is not the same as Tire Model 564 from Company ABC or Model 239845 from Company XYZ"

... except you seem to trying to provide a 'helpful tip' when there isn't one to provide. Costco's Michelin - Energy 132 MXV4 S8 will be the same as everyone else's Michelin - Energy 32 MXV4 S8. It obviously won't be the same as Michelin - Pilot MXM4.

Kardinal
Dei Gratina Regina
Mod
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th

Kardinal

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said by urbanriot:

... except you seem to trying to provide a 'helpful tip' when there isn't one to provide. Costco's Michelin - Energy 132 MXV4 S8 will be the same as everyone else's Michelin - Energy 32 MXV4 S8. It obviously won't be the same as Michelin - Pilot MXM4.

No, I'm actually comparing a MXV4-S8 sold on a new car to one that is sold by a tire company as a replacement tire and saying they likely *won't* be the same. They'll have the same pattern, but will be made with a different rubber compound with a different wear rating (as noted upthread by koira See Profile). If the one from a dealer is rated for 40k km, while the aftermarket one is 75k km, is that the same tire? The ones on new cars are often optimized for fuel economy to help the car reach the EPA ratings in real world conditions, but that can be at the expense of handling characteristics or tread life because it's what the manufacturer's want (ie/ "the new car gets great gas mileage!" not "my car's tires are three years old have 70k km on them, and they're still good").

I was trying to provide information I've acquired through conversations with people who work in the industry that the tires with the same name can be and are often different depending on if they are for use on new car delivery or aftermarket retail, and a social forum of non-industry people have chosen not to believe me based on their own opinions on the subject. I'm fine with that.

dirtyjeffer0
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London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

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that isn't the case, at least with the Michelins...a Michelin MXV4-S8 is the same, whether it came on your car when it was new from the factory, or if you bought replacements from Active Green and Ross, OK Tire, Wal-Mart or Costco (or wherever you bought them)...Michelin does not make different versions of the same tires...period...as i said, i can't speak for every brand, but i am pretty sure what you are saying is not likely for the major brands.

urbanriot
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join:2004-10-18
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said by Kardinal:

I was trying to provide information I've acquired through conversations with people who work in the industry that the tires with the same name can be and are often different depending on if they are for use on new car delivery or aftermarket retail, and a social forum of non-industry people have chosen not to believe me based on their own opinions on the subject. I'm fine with that.

I've asked people that work in the industry about what you've brought up here and the answer, coupled with a chuckle, was "that's a load of horse shit". I reiterated my question and the response was "where the fuck do you think we all get our tires from?"

You bring up a good point about non-industry people on social forums, so I'll defer to those I know that work in the industry and all around common sense.

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
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join:2004-02-16

koira to Kardinal

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said by Kardinal:

said by urbanriot:

... except you seem to trying to provide a 'helpful tip' when there isn't one to provide. Costco's Michelin - Energy 132 MXV4 S8 will be the same as everyone else's Michelin - Energy 32 MXV4 S8. It obviously won't be the same as Michelin - Pilot MXM4.

No, I'm actually comparing a MXV4-S8 sold on a new car to one that is sold by a tire company as a replacement tire and saying they likely *won't* be the same. They'll have the same pattern, but will be made with a different rubber compound with a different wear rating (as noted upthread by koira See Profile). If the one from a dealer is rated for 40k km, while the aftermarket one is 75k km, is that the same tire? The ones on new cars are often optimized for fuel economy to help the car reach the EPA ratings in real world conditions, but that can be at the expense of handling characteristics or tread life because it's what the manufacturer's want (ie/ "the new car gets great gas mileage!" not "my car's tires are three years old have 70k km on them, and they're still good").

I was trying to provide information I've acquired through conversations with people who work in the industry that the tires with the same name can be and are often different depending on if they are for use on new car delivery or aftermarket retail, and a social forum of non-industry people have chosen not to believe me based on their own opinions on the subject. I'm fine with that.

OK coincidentally I have a set of MXV4 S8 on our Jetta
These were what came on the car when new, but I told them it had to be these tires when I bought it. other wise they could keep the car

sidewall says:
treadwear rating is 440
temperature A
traction A

What do yours say ?
koira

koira to Kardinal

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to Kardinal
said by Kardinal:

said by urbanriot:

... except you seem to trying to provide a 'helpful tip' when there isn't one to provide. Costco's Michelin - Energy 132 MXV4 S8 will be the same as everyone else's Michelin - Energy 32 MXV4 S8. It obviously won't be the same as Michelin - Pilot MXM4.

No, I'm actually comparing a MXV4-S8 sold on a new car to one that is sold by a tire company as a replacement tire and saying they likely *won't* be the same. They'll have the same pattern, but will be made with a different rubber compound with a different wear rating (as noted upthread by koira See Profile). If the one from a dealer is rated for 40k km, while the aftermarket one is 75k km, is that the same tire? The ones on new cars are often optimized for fuel economy to help the car reach the EPA ratings in real world conditions, but that can be at the expense of handling characteristics or tread life because it's what the manufacturer's want (ie/ "the new car gets great gas mileage!" not "my car's tires are three years old have 70k km on them, and they're still good").

I was trying to provide information I've acquired through conversations with people who work in the industry that the tires with the same name can be and are often different depending on if they are for use on new car delivery or aftermarket retail, and a social forum of non-industry people have chosen not to believe me based on their own opinions on the subject. I'm fine with that.

Speaking from experience i can comment there is a difference on road hazard warranty on OEM vs aftermarket of the same tire.
But concerning wear if OEM lasts 40 K vs after market of the same model tire lasts 70 K that translates to the original equipment tires are made with softer compound and that would result in lower fuel economy due to extra friction. That's reverse of your argument on a new car delivering EPA rating isn't it ?

dirtyjeffer0
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dirtyjeffer0

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said by koira:

Speaking from experience i can comment there is a difference on road hazard warranty on OEM vs aftermarket of the same tire.

that likely has to do with the auto manufacturer...when you buy a new car, your tire's warranty is from the auto company, not the tire company...it is quite possible the auto company chooses less warranty for a price break.