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Venom14
join:2011-10-21
Augusta, GA

Venom14 to cigtyme

Member

to cigtyme

Re: [Raiding] Real ID and the LFR system

as far as "rotating tanks" goes, we dont have to bother, just have them q as dps. if one of the "not actually tanking" tanks wins loot, it will see them in tank spec and give them an item for that spec.

I did that 2 lfr's ago. queued as heals, jumped around in tank spec and gear. I did pick up adds that were running around in the caster group, so i wasn't totally dead weight. Got tanking shoulders out of it...
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

That is good to know. I am not being to bold by asking this, i just think that us 2 together, would keep more gear in our ranks, instead of joe Pug.
clawfury
join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI

clawfury

Member

There's no point to this with the new loot system. Who is in the group has absolutely no effect on the drops. It's individual. Doing it just for social fun though, that's cool. But don't think it will affect your loot distribution.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

said by clawfury:

There's no point to this with the new loot system. Who is in the group has absolutely no effect on the drops. It's individual. Doing it just for social fun though, that's cool. But don't think it will affecty our loot distribution.

sure there is (»[Raiding] Mean People Suck

Also, it allows us to do what Venom1 suggested, running with 4 people in tank spec so they all have a shot at loot while running with friends.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme to clawfury

Member

to clawfury
So if i run by my self 1/25 shot at gear. Has a 4% chance gear stays in the guild. As Opposed to 20/25 people(10/25 per guild) 80% it stays in the 2 guilds, or 40% it stays in my guild. Yea there are clearly no advantages.

Immer, i think i have to invite you, or vice versa, then give permission to invite, then we both just invite our peoples.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

yeah, just set up a raid and click that check mark that gives everyone "Assist".

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
Seattle, WA

Eumaeus to cigtyme

Member

to cigtyme
said by cigtyme:

So if i run by my self 1/25 shot at gear. Has a 4% chance gear stays in the guild. As Opposed to 20/25 people(10/25 per guild) 80% it stays in the 2 guilds, or 40% it stays in my guild. Yea there are clearly no advantages.

I think what those above mean is that there is not a set number of people receiving loot in LFR when a boss dies. It isn't that 5 of 25 people will get loot, it's that each person in the raid has X% chance to receive loot independant of one another.

So in reality it is a social / player skill reliability issue to queue up with friends moreso than to ensure your raid gets gear.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium Member
join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

Premium Member

The loot rolls are personal now, if you roll with a tank spec on lfr you will be gimping your dps for no reason, even when lfr bosses are a joke you can break some encounters if you don't plan this properly. See Elegon.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

In LFR if you want tank gear you have to be iin tank spec, LFR will only give you loot proper to your spec.

just need to be aware of it, I know we once did part 2 bosses 1 and 2 with sanc in tank spec but marked as a healer.

it went so smooth that no one noticed. (this was when he was first building a tank set.)
clawfury
join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI

clawfury

Member

If someone really wants tank gear that bad, go Queue alone. You have a 4% chance of getting tank gear regardless of who you are grouped with.

EDIT: No point in gimping your group with 4 tanks in tank spec, when you aren't changing the end result.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

in LFR if your aren't in tank spec you have 0% chance

though tank gear and Mdps gear does overlap some.

the LFR loot system is you will only ever get gear for your spec and class Mdps and tank might share some gear but dodge gear isn't Mdps gear so if your speced into a mdps spec you will not get dodge gear.

As with the coins you only have a shot at the part of the loot table that wow says is for your spec.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium Member
join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

Premium Member

said by DarkLogix:

in LFR if your aren't in tank spec you have 0% chance

though tank gear and Mdps gear does overlap some.

Yeah but it requires you doing the fight in tank spec, if you have a dps slot, I really hope you have enough total dps to burn down a boss. I even see it on LFR when I queue as a tank alone, I see 3 dps running in bear/blood/withshield trying to blend in.

If we down the boss is fine but if we wipe because of lack of damage is vote kick time.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

I agree is the DPS is good its fine, if not time for dps to be dps.

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
Seattle, WA

Eumaeus to Jobbie

Member

to Jobbie
Let's be honest, a good player taking a DPS slot but playing in tanking spec will often out-DPS the bottom 5-6 players anyway.

Still seeing people in the 22-25k range every time I do LFR.
clawfury
join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI

clawfury

Member

That's true, Eumaeus. However anyone wants to run a combined group is their business. I'm just sitting here trying to wrap my engineer's brain around the idea of how in the hell you get more gear in the guild by running together vs. separately. *mind melts*

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

a Pug of HoF LFR will likely be painful, a premade will likely kill stuff faster.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium Member
join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

Premium Member

said by DarkLogix:

a Pug of HoF LFR will likely be painful, a premade will likely kill stuff faster.

I will experience that tonight, when I try to tank HoF on LFR.

/scared

Arthritis
join:2011-10-20
Canada

Arthritis to clawfury

Member

to clawfury
said by clawfury:

If someone really wants tank gear that bad, go Queue alone. You have a 4% chance of getting tank gear regardless of who you are grouped with.

Yes and no.

Yes, if you finish the whole encounter you have that 4% chance to get tank gear. Unfortunately, the chances of you actually finishing the run are lower in LFR due to self appointed LFR police.

If you que as dps and go tank spec in LFR with non guildies you risk removal regardless of your performance. Certain players will feel a sense of obligation to try to remove you from the group. Sadly, you can have better dps numbers, better understanding, positioning, awareness. etc, etc.

I have no idea how long dps wait for LFR, but why risk the wait when you can insta que for the same instance with friends, get a more coordinated effort at gear for two guilds and avoid all the asshats with a God complex.

Seems like win / win, even for the LFR asshats.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium Member
join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

Premium Member

Again, the mechanics and damage have been dumbed down that as long as you reach the required dps for that encounter you will win and get your chance at loot for your personal roll + your elder coin.

If you don't you are in trouble.

Gainsborough
@johnstonesupply.com

Gainsborough

Anon

Yesterday, I did this... tank ques are usually longer ~30 mins (if you que tank/dps they force you to be a tank and you still wait 30mins.) just dps ques 1 min. So qued as a dps... stayed in prot... did this for all 6 bosses in LFR... got 3 peices of tank gear and two legendary quest items. Smiled to myself that ironicly this is was was happening in LFG with the dps queing as a tank to get fast que times... pay back is a b*tch dps.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

Well i stand corrected. Everyone just has a 4% chance. I was wrong. I thought 5 pieces dropped and everyone could use a coin for an extra chance. Now there is a roll char by char, so there is no gear benefit to LFR for 2 guilds. Just the No Asshats and it will go smoother hypothetically. LOL
clawfury
join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI

clawfury

Member

Yep I think for the chance of having no asshats, sig, it would be totally worth it Good luck!

Venom14
join:2011-10-21
Augusta, GA

Venom14 to clawfury

Member

to clawfury
said by clawfury:

That's true, Eumaeus. However anyone wants to run a combined group is their business. I'm just sitting here trying to wrap my engineer's brain around the idea of how in the hell you get more gear in the guild by running together vs. separately. *mind melts*

you are looking at it from an individual chance pov. we are looking at keeping the gear in the guild/guilds. its ok it it goes to a "sister guild." in the end we are helping friends, not carrying strangers. if we fill up all 25 spots we guarantee that the loot stays within the combined guilds.

sorry i cant show my work, i only understood the theory behind the calculus, and that was some 12 years ago.

Nick D
Premium Member
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

Nick D

Premium Member

If the 25 members did the runs individually, you'd have the same (statistical) amount of loot in the raid team as if you did one run of 25 players, because the presence of other people neither helps nor hurts your loot chances.

The drops can't be traded, y'know.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

said by Nick D:

If the 25 members did the runs individually, you'd have the same (statistical) amount of loot in the raid team as if you did one run of 25 players, because the presence of other people neither helps nor hurts your loot chances.

The drops can't be traded, y'know.

Yes i started this thread with the mindset of 5 pieces per 25 people. Now each person rolls. It is really not even a 4% chance. All 25 people could win or lose. I don't know Blizzards numbers. All we would be doing is insuring no asshats, and a smothe run.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

I still think its a great idea... something different to do. I'm all for bolstering a community feel.

Nick D
Premium Member
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

Nick D to cigtyme

Premium Member

to cigtyme
It's a 15% chance, for the record. Per kill, and per coin.

I was clarifying for Venom/Scaith.

Venom14
join:2011-10-21
Augusta, GA

Venom14 to Nick D

Member

to Nick D
said by Nick D:

If the 25 members did the runs individually, you'd have the same (statistical) amount of loot in the raid team as if you did one run of 25 players, because the presence of other people neither helps nor hurts your loot chances.

The drops can't be traded, y'know.

dark... break out the calculator on this
you are right, drops cannot be traded. but I'm more concerned with loot going to our group than to any one individual.

while this does very little to increase the output of the individual within a normal raid, it strengthens the group's output as a whole. it's a holistic approach to gearing. think of it as loot council without the council.

edit: i totally understand what you are saying and statistically you are correct. /math respect
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

One of my pet peaves as RL and GM is getting people, like my self, that groan when it is plate or mail, that i cant use, to understand the guild concept. If it increases threat, dmg, or heals, it benefits the other 9 or 24 raiders.

stonhinge
Premium Member
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS

stonhinge to Venom14

Premium Member

to Venom14
My raid has been queuing for LFR as a group while we wait for the last couple of people to finish gearing up. Personally, i don't queue as a tank solo for LFR because the other tank is a totally unknown quality. Thankfully, i'm a monk, so I can manage things like that and still get appropriate gear.

the bonus to queuing as a group is that you still feel like raiding, and you've got a group of people that is willing to get it cleared. It strengthens the group's output as a whole because you've already got people who are actively working together, and most likely have voice communications set up.