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« Thats itAndroid support for WoW??? »
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This is a sub-selection from [Raiding] Mean People Suck


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
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reply to Archivis

Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck

So what's happening right now?

said by Archivis:

I am usually aggressive against people who I perceive are wrong. I hit the post more than I would hit the poster.

said by Immer:

Here's what's stupid about the arguments against mine.

said by Archivis:

If there is something in LFR that can cause a person to think that they have been victimized in any traumatic manner, then that is a clear definition of being thin-skinned. Whether or not you respond is irrelevant at this point. If you're mentally harmed by anything that comes out of LFR, you've probably got some major issues to address outside of LFR.

There's no problem in speaking up, but the #1 rule of arguing on the Internet (aside from the whole arguing/retard meme) is not to convince your opponent that they are wrong, but to convince the audience that your opponent is wrong.

If you're going to respond, construct it in a manner that the rest of the raid will agree with you and then use it to drive that vote kick. You need that majority, right? Get those people as as angry as you are and have them join you in a vote kick.

said by Immer:

The OP cites a problem of assholes ruining the LFR experience, and the proposed solution is to speak out, VTK, and /ignore.

I'm not talking about baffoonery... but abuse.

--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Krisnatharok
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Resolved: Abuse is bad in LFR, and you should do something about it.

In one corner, we have Immer See Profile, with the moral reason for kicking the abuser.

In the other corner, we have Archivis See Profile, with the expedient solution for getting someone kicked.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
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Evans, GA
kudos:8

1 edit
wow... that was MSNBC worthy.

edit: We agree that VTK, /ignore, and speaking up should be done. When they are done, how they are done, and for what reasons... totally different perspectives.


Krisnatharok
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okbro


Krisnatharok
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reply to Immer
said by Immer:

We agree that VTK, /ignore, and speaking up should be done. When they are done, how they are done, and for what reasons... totally different perspectives.

Do continue.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Archivis
Your Daddy
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join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
No, please don't.


Krisnatharok
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I'm sorry, I forgot to say please.

cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it

join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1
Maybe blizz can start a LFMPR(looking for mean people raid) and a LFNPR(looking for nice people raid)


Immer
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reply to Krisnatharok
It has all been said, man. You called my approach white-knighting, remember? Archivis calls it circle-jerking. Neither of those terms indicate agreement... much less vehement agreement.


Immer
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reply to cigtyme
said by cigtyme:

Maybe blizz can start a LFMPR(looking for mean people raid) and a LFNPR(looking for nice people raid)

lol... dangit... that coffee was hot!


Krisnatharok
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reply to cigtyme
I really do not see where the problem is in the first place--in all the LFRs I've been in, both this and last expac, verbal abuse is not the main problem to fun OR completion--it's really the baddies and under-geared people bag-stacking to get in and get carried to collect free loots.

Like I said, slow news day over at DB.

You really want to start a controversy? Require every piece of gear that can be enchanted, to be enchanted. Require every piece of gear with a socket to have an expac-appropriate gem. Let LFR auto-kick anyone who falls under the DPS threshold. Auto-kick anyone who isn't within 2% of the hit/exp caps. Auto-kick anyone with more than 2 pieces of PVP gear. Auto-kick anyone who stands in fire and dies more than once per encounter.

THAT would take a large amount of necessary time-wasting away from the whims of the tank/RL and make it automatic.

At that point, you can say whatever you want about anyone's mom, Hitler, or Darth Vader.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


JB
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said by Krisnatharok:

it's really the baddies and under-geared people bag-stacking to get in and get carried to collect free loots.

That is the truth. This is the main reason why they made PvP gear not so absolutely useless in PvE, so baddies can still use them and not be next to worthless.

cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it

join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1
Ok well make a LFNBR(looking for non-baddie raid) and make a LFCR(looking for competent raider)


Krisnatharok
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reply to Immer
said by Immer:

It has all been said, man. You called my approach white-knighting, remember?

That's because it is. Go back and read your own responses. This is a moral duty, if you aren't actively/aggressively hunting down every verbal abuser in your raid, you become part of the problem! You are either with us or against us. This is not the Global War on Abuse (GWOA has less of a ring to it). There was no 9/11 of LFR abusers where they came to your house and called you nasty things in front of your kids.

It's the internet. Welcome, and enjoy your stay.

90% of the verbal abuse problems are solved with a report and ignore. If you emotionally invest yourself in ridding every LFR group you are in of any sort verbal abuse, you are going to end up quitting the game a frustrated person.

I'd even posit that if the abuser is competently fulfilling his or her role in the raid, it's better to just put them on ignore and finish the raid, than kick them and get a Very Nice baddy that is stacking spellpower on his ret pally because he's movie-moding through the instance.

In my personal, anecdotal experience, most verbal abuse has a competence issue associated with it (tank dies, brez'd, dies, because he can't click in Ultrax--random person insults the tank for his lack of intelligence--who should you kick?). Dealing with the abuse that comes is just a red herring--deal with the competence failure that led to it in the first place.

Everyone else is fed up with fails, too, so the number of people ready to dump abuse on someone expecting to get carried is going to be high.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

Arsinic

join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA
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reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

You really want to start a controversy? Require every piece of gear that can be enchanted, to be enchanted. Require every piece of gear with a socket to have an expac-appropriate gem. Let LFR auto-kick anyone who falls under the DPS threshold. Auto-kick anyone who isn't within 2% of the hit/exp caps. Auto-kick anyone with more than 2 pieces of PVP gear. Auto-kick anyone who stands in fire and dies more than once per encounter.

woooow now... I raid hardmodes wearing pvp gear... can't help shitty drop rates, but pvp is a perfectly fine filler with the way the gear is handled this xpac.. Malevolent gear > anything not from MV reg or better.(with the exception of pvp trinkets).

Everything else there is fine with me ...


Krisnatharok
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You could go either way on the first tier of raiding.

PVP gear is ilevel 450 with PVP stats IIRC. But you can get geared in heroics or from rep and you will have 463 blues or 476 purples. PVP gear is a fine filler for heroics, but ideally doesn't have a place in raids.

That said, if you can keep up with someone in 463 gear on the meters, then more power to you. That's why I mentioned a threshold for activity inside the raid, not just a gear-check to be able to queue. You should have to put time into getting ready to raid.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
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reply to Krisnatharok
Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
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quote:
The biggest problem with this thread isn't that you think I'm right or that I think you're wrong, it's that you don't even understand my argument. It's like trying to explain to a dog why he shouldn't run a red light. At the end of the day, he's just going to hump your leg, take a shit on your carpet and not understand what you've said.
This is the problem with this thread. You're still arguing why the purple sun is potato.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
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There is no problem with this thread. It's doing what it is supposed to do.


Archivis
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1 recommendation

reply to Immer
said by Immer:

Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.

Let's go back to this and how contradictory it seems in my book. You expect people to confront abusive behavior in LFR similar to how you would confront it in a restaurant. The way you confront behavior in LFR is to say "You're being really mean." If there's anything other than a Canadian-style apology exchange taking place, your solution is to put the guy on ignore (put your head in the sand) and then start up a vote kick. What if the vote kick fails? What if the guy continually berates the rest of the raid? You've put him on ignore so the world is right in your book, but you continue to see responses from people in raid chat who are angered by this guy.

Let's go to your restaurant analogy. You see abusive behavior going on and you think it is your moral duty to confront it. A guy is yelling at a waitress in a manner that is clearly way more than just being dissatisfied with the service. He's personally berating her, raising his voice and the waitress is obviously scared. Your solution is to stand up in the restaurant and blurt out "Hey man, those are mean words!". If the guy blurts out "fuck you", your solution is to then put your hands up to your ears, close your eyes, put your tongue out and chant "la la la la la", while sitting back down in your chair and going on with your business. Meanwhile, you've accomplished absolutely nothing other than making yourself feel like you did. You leave the restaurant, go home and tell all your friends the good deed you did and your peers wank furiously to your moral superiority. In the meantime, you've done absolutely nothing to correct the actual problem.

In my world, I'd stand up to the guy in the restaurant and say the same thing, "You're being really mean". If the guy doesn't apology to the waitress, I then do what I do best. I don't just insult the guy. That's too simple. I don't just raise my voice or threaten the guy or do anything that anyone else does. I humiliate him in front of everyone. Within about 15 seconds, I'll have the entire restaurant laughing at this guy as if he walked in without clothes and just had a sudden realization. These people self-implode. Complete and utter humiliation kicks in and they leave. The problem is solved, the abuser is taught a lesson and the victim is actually rescued from a bad situation.

But I have to say some pretty rude things to make that happen. You start by being civil. You don't start off by being rude. You give people the option to be civil. You give people the option to be intelligent. You give people the option of backing away from a bad decision or a mistake. Some people respond to that. Some don't. When they don't, you go for the throat.

So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Krisnatharok
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reply to Immer
said by Immer:

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree.

Another straw man.

Performance failures warrant ppublic embarrassment (getting called out in front of the group), honesty (being told what exactly is the issue), and the full wrath of the 24 people who's time you are wasting (a vote kick).

You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom, you are going to point out that his DPS levels are barely worthy of WotLK raids.

Is that verbal brutality? Then you better grow thicker skin, because truth hurts.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
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said by Krisnatharok:

said by Immer:

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree.

Another straw man.

Performance failures warrant public embarrassment correction (getting called out in front of the group), honesty (being told what exactly is the issue), and the full wrath of the 24 people who's time you are wasting (a vote kick) if they fail to take corrective action.

You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom, you are going to point out that his DPS levels are barely worthy of WotLK raids.

Is that verbal brutality? Then you better grow thicker skin, because truth hurts.

Cool. I wasn't erecting a straw-man. This is the first time I've seen you guys somewhat agree on what I'd call abuse. As I've said repeatedly, this isn't about calling someone out for failing at mechanics or dpsing the floor tile... it's about abuse.

lol @ thicker skin comment.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Immer
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reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.

You keep going there because you don't understand my approach... you assume you know it all.

but you were right on one thing... I probably wouldn't /ignore until after the VTK failed.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
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Right, so the guy in the restaurant doesn't respond to the "You're mean, you should stop or leave" so you just put your head in the sand while he continues to berate his victim.

You are entirely ineffective. You cannot simultaneously state that you have a moral duty to stick up to bullying of any kind while refusing to actually stick up to bullying, cyber or otherwise.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
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I speak up, not the way you implied. I take action, not the actions you implied. I get results without compromising my integrity or values. I fight when a fight is warranted. You keep making me out to be a pacifist. That's completely untrue. You don't understand me or what I stand for. That is why I'm not trying to change you, or convince you of anything.


Krisnatharok
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reply to Immer
said by Immer:

said by Krisnatharok:

You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom...

Cool. I wasn't erecting a straw-man. This is the first time I've seen you guys somewhat agree on what I'd call abuse. As I've said repeatedly, this isn't about calling someone out for failing at mechanics or dpsing the floor tile... it's about abuse.

Did you miss the negative on purpose?
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If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
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No I didn't miss it at all. I found common ground in that statment in the text I put in bold, because it meant that you "aren't going to insult the fail's mom". I'm tracking, dude.


Archivis
Your Daddy
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reply to Immer
Please, educate us on your methods. After you've confronted someone in LFR with civility and have become ineffective, after your vote kick fails and after you place a person on ignore, please share us how you can "get results" without compromising your integrity or values (lol?)

You started this thread. You told everyone to stand up to them. You're one slice of bread away from being Jesus Christ himself. Please educate us.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Krisnatharok
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reply to Immer
said by Immer:

No I didn't miss it at all. I found common ground in that statment in the text I put in bold, because it meant that you "aren't going to insult the fail's mom". I'm tracking, dude.

Just making sure you weren't being sarcastic.

I told you we all agreed. Deep down.

said by Immer:

You don't understand me or what I stand for.

And this is why Arch is jumping all over you. You pull a moral high horse then won't defend, or explain, it. People can respect your beliefs--even if they disagree with them--as long as you can explain them in a logical, coherent manner when challenged. But if you decide to paint the issue in hard black-and-white, good-and-evil morals, and then pull something like you just did, then you just look like...


--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
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2 edits
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

You started this thread. You told everyone to stand up to them. You're one slice of bread away from being Jesus Christ himself. Please educate us.

This really is who you are, isn't it? The restaurant scenario has happened, and I didn't need to involve the entire restaurant.

The LFR example has followed a couple of different paths.

As soon as something goes wrong, I start checking logs... I want to know who really "started" that fight (hunter Misdirect has lead me to vote the wrong person kicked once before). If I notice someone getting dumped on, I speak out. Most of the time the abuser backs off the abuse part and goes back to just pointing out what he/she views as the problem. I try to confirm in the meters. While doing that I usually whisper the accused/victim a question "first time?" or "do you know this fight?" They admit they're a noob, I focus on my /whispers to that person and am free to /ignore the asshat. If the rest of the raid boots the guy I'm working with, oh well. I did what I could.

I've also seen an entire LFR go from just "ignoring the abusive asshat" to banding against said asshat simply by getting the guy to "come at me" instead of his earlier target. It is much easier to do when you are the top healer, or top dps, but it is possible to be the catalyst for social change without being it's undeniable champion. Anyway, I can calmly continue to rebuke his demeanor (as I am handling this thread)... sometimes the rest of the LFR jumps in and marginalizes him. They don't always VTK the guy, because sometimes it is the Top DPS/DMG Done who feels entitled to being an ass. But at least, he's focused on someone who has thick skin(me) rather than someone who might actually be hurting, new, confused, a kid... etc. What is really great is if I can get the asshole to stop posting his venom in /rsay and move to /whisper just to me. That's a big win in my book.

I've had people create fresh toons on our server to say thanks. I've had people create fresh toons on our server to apologize for their demeanor while reiterating that they were justified.

I've also failed to make any difference whatsoever in many an LFR. But I've never failed to take action... and I've very rarely lost my cool or compromised my standards. That's my point.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.