 KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:7 | reply to Immer
Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck said by Immer:We agree that VTK, /ignore, and speaking up should be done. When they are done, how they are done, and for what reasons... totally different perspectives.
Do continue.
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If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening. |
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 ArchivisYour DaddyPremium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:18 | No, please don't. |
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KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:7 | I'm sorry, I forgot to say please. |
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cigtymeCoonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1 | Maybe blizz can start a LFMPR(looking for mean people raid) and a LFNPR(looking for nice people raid) |
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 ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 | reply to Krisnatharok
It has all been said, man. You called my approach white-knighting, remember? Archivis calls it circle-jerking. Neither of those terms indicate agreement... much less vehement agreement. |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 Reviews:
 ·Comcast
| reply to cigtyme
said by cigtyme:Maybe blizz can start a LFMPR(looking for mean people raid) and a LFNPR(looking for nice people raid)
lol... dangit... that coffee was hot! |
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KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:7 | reply to cigtyme
I really do not see where the problem is in the first place--in all the LFRs I've been in, both this and last expac, verbal abuse is not the main problem to fun OR completion--it's really the baddies and under-geared people bag-stacking to get in and get carried to collect free loots.
Like I said, slow news day over at DB.
You really want to start a controversy? Require every piece of gear that can be enchanted, to be enchanted. Require every piece of gear with a socket to have an expac-appropriate gem. Let LFR auto-kick anyone who falls under the DPS threshold. Auto-kick anyone who isn't within 2% of the hit/exp caps. Auto-kick anyone with more than 2 pieces of PVP gear. Auto-kick anyone who stands in fire and dies more than once per encounter.
THAT would take a large amount of necessary time-wasting away from the whims of the tank/RL and make it automatic.
At that point, you can say whatever you want about anyone's mom, Hitler, or Darth Vader.
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If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening. |
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 JBEveryday Normal Guy
join:2009-05-14
·Cogeco Cable
| said by Krisnatharok:it's really the baddies and under-geared people bag-stacking to get in and get carried to collect free loots. That is the truth. This is the main reason why they made PvP gear not so absolutely useless in PvE, so baddies can still use them and not be next to worthless. |
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cigtymeCoonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1 | Ok well make a LFNBR(looking for non-baddie raid) and make a LFCR(looking for competent raider) |
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KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:7 | reply to Immer
said by Immer:It has all been said, man. You called my approach white-knighting, remember?
That's because it is. Go back and read your own responses. This is a moral duty, if you aren't actively/aggressively hunting down every verbal abuser in your raid, you become part of the problem! You are either with us or against us. This is not the Global War on Abuse (GWOA has less of a ring to it). There was no 9/11 of LFR abusers where they came to your house and called you nasty things in front of your kids.
It's the internet. Welcome, and enjoy your stay.
90% of the verbal abuse problems are solved with a report and ignore. If you emotionally invest yourself in ridding every LFR group you are in of any sort verbal abuse, you are going to end up quitting the game a frustrated person.
I'd even posit that if the abuser is competently fulfilling his or her role in the raid, it's better to just put them on ignore and finish the raid, than kick them and get a Very Nice baddy that is stacking spellpower on his ret pally because he's movie-moding through the instance.
In my personal, anecdotal experience, most verbal abuse has a competence issue associated with it (tank dies, brez'd, dies, because he can't click in Ultrax--random person insults the tank for his lack of intelligence--who should you kick?). Dealing with the abuse that comes is just a red herring--deal with the competence failure that led to it in the first place.
Everyone else is fed up with fails, too, so the number of people ready to dump abuse on someone expecting to get carried is going to be high.
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If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening. |
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Arsinic
join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA | reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:You really want to start a controversy? Require every piece of gear that can be enchanted, to be enchanted. Require every piece of gear with a socket to have an expac-appropriate gem. Let LFR auto-kick anyone who falls under the DPS threshold. Auto-kick anyone who isn't within 2% of the hit/exp caps. Auto-kick anyone with more than 2 pieces of PVP gear. Auto-kick anyone who stands in fire and dies more than once per encounter.
woooow now... I raid hardmodes wearing pvp gear... can't help shitty drop rates, but pvp is a perfectly fine filler with the way the gear is handled this xpac.. Malevolent gear > anything not from MV reg or better.(with the exception of pvp trinkets).
Everything else there is fine with me  ... |
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KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:7 | You could go either way on the first tier of raiding.
PVP gear is ilevel 450 with PVP stats IIRC. But you can get geared in heroics or from rep and you will have 463 blues or 476 purples. PVP gear is a fine filler for heroics, but ideally doesn't have a place in raids.
That said, if you can keep up with someone in 463 gear on the meters, then more power to you. That's why I mentioned a threshold for activity inside the raid, not just a gear-check to be able to queue. You should have to put time into getting ready to raid.
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If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening. |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to Krisnatharok
Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.
You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.
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Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.
Intelligence is no substitute for Character. |
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ArchivisYour DaddyPremium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:18 | quote:
The biggest problem with this thread isn't that you think I'm right or that I think you're wrong, it's that you don't even understand my argument. It's like trying to explain to a dog why he shouldn't run a red light. At the end of the day, he's just going to hump your leg, take a shit on your carpet and not understand what you've said.
This is the problem with this thread. You're still arguing why the purple sun is potato.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 | There is no problem with this thread. It's doing what it is supposed to do. |
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ArchivisYour DaddyPremium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:18 | reply to Immer
said by Immer:Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.
You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.
Let's go back to this and how contradictory it seems in my book. You expect people to confront abusive behavior in LFR similar to how you would confront it in a restaurant. The way you confront behavior in LFR is to say "You're being really mean." If there's anything other than a Canadian-style apology exchange taking place, your solution is to put the guy on ignore (put your head in the sand) and then start up a vote kick. What if the vote kick fails? What if the guy continually berates the rest of the raid? You've put him on ignore so the world is right in your book, but you continue to see responses from people in raid chat who are angered by this guy.
Let's go to your restaurant analogy. You see abusive behavior going on and you think it is your moral duty to confront it. A guy is yelling at a waitress in a manner that is clearly way more than just being dissatisfied with the service. He's personally berating her, raising his voice and the waitress is obviously scared. Your solution is to stand up in the restaurant and blurt out "Hey man, those are mean words!". If the guy blurts out "fuck you", your solution is to then put your hands up to your ears, close your eyes, put your tongue out and chant "la la la la la", while sitting back down in your chair and going on with your business. Meanwhile, you've accomplished absolutely nothing other than making yourself feel like you did. You leave the restaurant, go home and tell all your friends the good deed you did and your peers wank furiously to your moral superiority. In the meantime, you've done absolutely nothing to correct the actual problem.
In my world, I'd stand up to the guy in the restaurant and say the same thing, "You're being really mean". If the guy doesn't apology to the waitress, I then do what I do best. I don't just insult the guy. That's too simple. I don't just raise my voice or threaten the guy or do anything that anyone else does. I humiliate him in front of everyone. Within about 15 seconds, I'll have the entire restaurant laughing at this guy as if he walked in without clothes and just had a sudden realization. These people self-implode. Complete and utter humiliation kicks in and they leave. The problem is solved, the abuser is taught a lesson and the victim is actually rescued from a bad situation.
But I have to say some pretty rude things to make that happen. You start by being civil. You don't start off by being rude. You give people the option to be civil. You give people the option to be intelligent. You give people the option of backing away from a bad decision or a mistake. Some people respond to that. Some don't. When they don't, you go for the throat.
So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK |
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KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:7 | reply to Immer
said by Immer:You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree.
Another straw man.
Performance failures warrant ppublic embarrassment (getting called out in front of the group), honesty (being told what exactly is the issue), and the full wrath of the 24 people who's time you are wasting (a vote kick).
You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom, you are going to point out that his DPS levels are barely worthy of WotLK raids.
Is that verbal brutality? Then you better grow thicker skin, because truth hurts.
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If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening. |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·Comcast
| said by Krisnatharok:said by Immer:You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree.
Another straw man. Performance failures warrant public embarrassment correction (getting called out in front of the group), honesty (being told what exactly is the issue), and the full wrath of the 24 people who's time you are wasting (a vote kick) if they fail to take corrective action. You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom, you are going to point out that his DPS levels are barely worthy of WotLK raids. Is that verbal brutality? Then you better grow thicker skin, because truth hurts. Cool. I wasn't erecting a straw-man. This is the first time I've seen you guys somewhat agree on what I'd call abuse. As I've said repeatedly, this isn't about calling someone out for failing at mechanics or dpsing the floor tile... it's about abuse.
lol @ thicker skin comment.
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Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.
Intelligence is no substitute for Character. |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process. You keep going there because you don't understand my approach... you assume you know it all.
but you were right on one thing... I probably wouldn't /ignore until after the VTK failed.
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Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.
Intelligence is no substitute for Character. |
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ArchivisYour DaddyPremium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:18 | Right, so the guy in the restaurant doesn't respond to the "You're mean, you should stop or leave" so you just put your head in the sand while he continues to berate his victim.
You are entirely ineffective. You cannot simultaneously state that you have a moral duty to stick up to bullying of any kind while refusing to actually stick up to bullying, cyber or otherwise.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK |
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