dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
10
share rss forum feed


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 recommendation

reply to Immer

Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck

said by Immer:

Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.

Let's go back to this and how contradictory it seems in my book. You expect people to confront abusive behavior in LFR similar to how you would confront it in a restaurant. The way you confront behavior in LFR is to say "You're being really mean." If there's anything other than a Canadian-style apology exchange taking place, your solution is to put the guy on ignore (put your head in the sand) and then start up a vote kick. What if the vote kick fails? What if the guy continually berates the rest of the raid? You've put him on ignore so the world is right in your book, but you continue to see responses from people in raid chat who are angered by this guy.

Let's go to your restaurant analogy. You see abusive behavior going on and you think it is your moral duty to confront it. A guy is yelling at a waitress in a manner that is clearly way more than just being dissatisfied with the service. He's personally berating her, raising his voice and the waitress is obviously scared. Your solution is to stand up in the restaurant and blurt out "Hey man, those are mean words!". If the guy blurts out "fuck you", your solution is to then put your hands up to your ears, close your eyes, put your tongue out and chant "la la la la la", while sitting back down in your chair and going on with your business. Meanwhile, you've accomplished absolutely nothing other than making yourself feel like you did. You leave the restaurant, go home and tell all your friends the good deed you did and your peers wank furiously to your moral superiority. In the meantime, you've done absolutely nothing to correct the actual problem.

In my world, I'd stand up to the guy in the restaurant and say the same thing, "You're being really mean". If the guy doesn't apology to the waitress, I then do what I do best. I don't just insult the guy. That's too simple. I don't just raise my voice or threaten the guy or do anything that anyone else does. I humiliate him in front of everyone. Within about 15 seconds, I'll have the entire restaurant laughing at this guy as if he walked in without clothes and just had a sudden realization. These people self-implode. Complete and utter humiliation kicks in and they leave. The problem is solved, the abuser is taught a lesson and the victim is actually rescued from a bad situation.

But I have to say some pretty rude things to make that happen. You start by being civil. You don't start off by being rude. You give people the option to be civil. You give people the option to be intelligent. You give people the option of backing away from a bad decision or a mistake. Some people respond to that. Some don't. When they don't, you go for the throat.

So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Archivis:

So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.

You keep going there because you don't understand my approach... you assume you know it all.

but you were right on one thing... I probably wouldn't /ignore until after the VTK failed.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
Right, so the guy in the restaurant doesn't respond to the "You're mean, you should stop or leave" so you just put your head in the sand while he continues to berate his victim.

You are entirely ineffective. You cannot simultaneously state that you have a moral duty to stick up to bullying of any kind while refusing to actually stick up to bullying, cyber or otherwise.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
I speak up, not the way you implied. I take action, not the actions you implied. I get results without compromising my integrity or values. I fight when a fight is warranted. You keep making me out to be a pacifist. That's completely untrue. You don't understand me or what I stand for. That is why I'm not trying to change you, or convince you of anything.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
Please, educate us on your methods. After you've confronted someone in LFR with civility and have become ineffective, after your vote kick fails and after you place a person on ignore, please share us how you can "get results" without compromising your integrity or values (lol?)

You started this thread. You told everyone to stand up to them. You're one slice of bread away from being Jesus Christ himself. Please educate us.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

2 edits
said by Archivis:

You started this thread. You told everyone to stand up to them. You're one slice of bread away from being Jesus Christ himself. Please educate us.

This really is who you are, isn't it? The restaurant scenario has happened, and I didn't need to involve the entire restaurant.

The LFR example has followed a couple of different paths.

As soon as something goes wrong, I start checking logs... I want to know who really "started" that fight (hunter Misdirect has lead me to vote the wrong person kicked once before). If I notice someone getting dumped on, I speak out. Most of the time the abuser backs off the abuse part and goes back to just pointing out what he/she views as the problem. I try to confirm in the meters. While doing that I usually whisper the accused/victim a question "first time?" or "do you know this fight?" They admit they're a noob, I focus on my /whispers to that person and am free to /ignore the asshat. If the rest of the raid boots the guy I'm working with, oh well. I did what I could.

I've also seen an entire LFR go from just "ignoring the abusive asshat" to banding against said asshat simply by getting the guy to "come at me" instead of his earlier target. It is much easier to do when you are the top healer, or top dps, but it is possible to be the catalyst for social change without being it's undeniable champion. Anyway, I can calmly continue to rebuke his demeanor (as I am handling this thread)... sometimes the rest of the LFR jumps in and marginalizes him. They don't always VTK the guy, because sometimes it is the Top DPS/DMG Done who feels entitled to being an ass. But at least, he's focused on someone who has thick skin(me) rather than someone who might actually be hurting, new, confused, a kid... etc. What is really great is if I can get the asshole to stop posting his venom in /rsay and move to /whisper just to me. That's a big win in my book.

I've had people create fresh toons on our server to say thanks. I've had people create fresh toons on our server to apologize for their demeanor while reiterating that they were justified.

I've also failed to make any difference whatsoever in many an LFR. But I've never failed to take action... and I've very rarely lost my cool or compromised my standards. That's my point.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.