dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
8
share rss forum feed


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to Immer

Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck

What I said was the honest truth. You didn't lie or mistreat me. I didn't spend a dime on you. This isn't about me, either. You can continue to believe that this is about me versus you, but that'll get you nowhere. You're so wrapped up in what Archivis is doing that you've completely ignored what you've done.

No one is willing to confront you because they see the personality that you have. There is no wrong doing on your part. There is never an error on your part. You have a strong reputation on these forums and for any single individual to say otherwise would excommunicate them from this forum. It's not like people can just gquit and move on. These people paid cash, in the hundreds of dollars. HUNDREDS. And then they have to pay equal amount just to make up for their mistake. That's absurd!

This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
Premium
join:2000-09-20
DFW
kudos:2
They say that all the electrons that form the internet couldn't fill the volume of a strawberry.

Fascinating.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.

Those who left our guild, did communicate with me. They got my apologies and my thanks. And now you claim to be their voice. This thread has been about trying to maintain a moral character despite being in an online setting... so, no, I'm not going to concede very much in that discussion. But I do admit failure, I do apologize and attempt to make amends... and I take full responsibility for what happens in our guild.

For a month, we had some really amazing raiders try to help us become great progression raiders. We are having fun, and we are doing more than we ever had before. We got a taste of greatness, and we will be forever grateful to them for the sacrifices they made while with us. We always emphasized family-first, and encouraged people to spend time with their families as they needed. Jobbie poured his heart out into this guild (he brought 2 toons over) and I failed him, personally... both in the guild and on these forums. I'm not ignoring what I've done, but I'm also not conceding to unrelated/unproven points, either. My failures as a recruiter and a raid leader do not absolve me of the responsibility of fighting to be a person of moral character on these forums, WoW, or any other social setting.

But in trying to defend an idea/philosophy, I guess I've allowed too much of the spotlight to be on me. It's a natural consequence from trying so hard to only speak "from my perspective".

/concede thread
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

1 recommendation

I will boil this whole thread down to a few sentences. (that will turn into a paragraph)

You cannot attempt to defend some moral high standing of right/wrong if you are not readily able to a) admit when you make mistakes or b) never make them. Since b) is nearly impossible for humans, a) is really your only choice.

To say that you go through logs and et al to find out who is fubaring up your LFR is great. I would like to find out exactly how you figure out who cast Misdirection using the WoW combat log in a short period of time to figure out who ninja pulled (considering I do logging for my guild) I would love some insight into this process (since it is nearly impossible without some sort of logging program or real-time viewing of the .txt file that the combat log exports into, which is also impossible because 2 programs cannot access the same file .txt file at the same time.)

However, that point is a segue into this one. To say you are critical of players in LFR is one thing. To not be equally as critical of the players in your OWN raid is terrible. If you plan on actually downing content pre-nerf-to-shit-bat, you have to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to EVERYONE. This is the social contract of a raiding guild, be it casual or otherwise. You have to understand that if 1/10 or 1/25 people is holding your raid back, then you must be able to communicate with them in such a way that they understand what they need to do in order to help the group succeed. That person must also understand that you are only looking out for the interest of EVERYONE in your raid group.

I am sorry, but mother of your children, wife, and any other various relationship with someone should not entitle you to some special place in the raiding hierarchy. If you are holding the raid back, according to your principals, you should not be there. That person should also understand one simple mantra of the raider (regardless of level of dedication); this is a GROUP activity. Anyone worth their salt should understand that if they are holding the group back, they need to get better or be replaced.

You hold everyone in your LFR group to this same litmus. Why you wouldn't hold your OWN raiders (regardless of relationship to you) to this same test is beyond Archivis, Kris and me.

You cannot say you are on this moral high ground and then when push comes to shove, back off. You are either a) morally upstanding and care about your guild's success or b) care more about your relationships with people. Neither is a wrong choice, however, if some or all of b) is true, someone else should be your raid leader and possibly guild leader. You have to be unbiased to be a truly great leader, period. This is even true in WoW.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
I do hold the same litmus. The litmus test here is abuse. I don't allow abuse in the guild or raid. That's a totally different thing from what Arch is accusing me of doing in my raid group. He's accusing me of not saying anything to my wife, or overly stifling the other raiders by not allowing them to say something to my wife. Neither of which was the case. She opted out of one raid, and our only replacement did no better. It was either keep trying or call the raid.

The raid was failing to mechanics, but we had an awesome r.shaman, 2 great mages, a great lock, and a great shaman. When everything fell in place at the same time we got the kill. And then we lost top players and now have to rebuild.

I don't hound players in LFR for performance. But if someone is abusing others incorrectly, I point out their error and then ask that they tone down the rhetoric and play the game. And then I offer to help the one "failing" via /whisper.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
said by Immer:

I don't hound players in LFR for performance. But if someone is abusing others incorrectly, I point out their error and then ask that they tone down the rhetoric and play the game. And then I offer to help the one "failing" via /whisper.

So this is where we disagree. Here's my LFR social contract:

No doubt you think me calling a baddie for failing is "abusing others incorrectly." When I say "hey look at the dumb lock standing in fire" and it gets noticed fight after fight, perhaps you disagree that the correct course of action is something other than a kick.

I don't care why he stands in fire. I don't care that his girlfriend is prancing in front of the monitor with nothing on. I don't care if his internet connection is slow because he's also downloading.

He's a stranger, and he's put in LFR to perform. If he can't, he has no place in LFR. It's hard to keep a group together if you aren't first held together by competence. It's the same thing that gives rise to esprit de corps, camaraderie, and sense of belonging/elitism in the military. When the shit hits the fan, you can depend on me to have your back and vice versa. If you aren't first held together by sheer competence, nothing else matters. Be able to do your job or GTFO of LFR.
To me, this ^ is the minimally, socially acceptable way to deal with someone who doesn't belong in LFR. At worst, we quickly kick him and move on. Sucks to be him, boo hoo.

I might be nicer to him (the group might not), and it might entirely depend on if I sat in traffic for longer than 3 hours total today, or maybe I empathized because we are the same class/race/whatever, but I don't have to, and it's not wrong if I don't. At the bare minimum, he deserves to be called out, justify his behavior (and something as simple as "sry was an accident wont happen again" is all it takes to defuse the situation) and put to a vote of the group. That's the social contract in LFR.

Anyways, my original premise that baddies are a bigger issue than abusers still stands. Especially if the baddies are provoking the abuse.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Venom1

join:2011-10-21
Augusta, GA
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

What I said was the honest truth. You didn't lie or mistreat me. I didn't spend a dime on you. This isn't about me, either. You can continue to believe that this is about me versus you, but that'll get you nowhere. You're so wrapped up in what Archivis is doing that you've completely ignored what you've done.

No one is willing to confront you because they see the personality that you have. There is no wrong doing on your part. There is never an error on your part. You have a strong reputation on these forums and for any single individual to say otherwise would excommunicate them from this forum. It's not like people can just gquit and move on. These people paid cash, in the hundreds of dollars. HUNDREDS. And then they have to pay equal amount just to make up for their mistake. That's absurd!

This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.

in a you can't handle the truth, and since immer knows my morals are not nearly as high as his are. here's what happened.

we had a bad tank have some serious issues swapping dogs. he is no longer with us. we have had bad calls on swaps since then, my fault, but these mysterious aggro issues have not come back up.

as a progression leader on the greatest guild feathermoon ever knew back in bc, you should understand that performance on a brand new encounter within the first two weeks is not going to be optimal and that sometime practicing the movements is more important than outright dps; mostly cuz the dps to the floor tiles doesn't matter. and that 20k output was also a bad call on my part while dealing with purple and blue at the same time. too much movement.

and lastly, there is no need to berate anyone, publicly or privately if it will not have the desired effect. As I know both of them personally, I know how much help Immer's spouse, get this novel concept, asks for when her numbers take a hit. She reads up on hunter's union, but the glorious thing is she doesn't need to ask in vent, she can lean over and ask. taking a the time to find a few attempts on the logs where she underperformed is just low.

but since you have jobbie back(he's the only one that spent anywhere in the neighborhood of money you are talking about so it narrows it down), you could just ask him, "What was the bigger problem, the dps or the tank?"

in the end we lost a strong personality that was affecting the guild negatively, and a few other raiders left not knowing he had already transfered within the same afternoon.

so this singling out of Immer's spouse to get under his skin may have worked, and got him to walk out of this thread, but trust he is not a pascifist, not if you knew him personally, and he does hold everyone accountable for their performance.

in the end you claim to be a professional troll; most of us don't actually think that a title worth claiming or defending.
--
For Rogues, by Rogues, to be used at the Rogue drive through when you order a side-order of Rogue.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept?

said by Immer:

I speak up, not the way you implied. I take action, not the actions you implied. I get results without compromising my integrity or values. I fight when a fight is warranted. You keep making me out to be a pacifist. That's completely untrue. You don't understand me or what I stand for. That is why I'm not trying to change you, or convince you of anything.

said by Immer:

As soon as something goes wrong, I start checking logs... I want to know who really "started" that fight (hunter Misdirect has lead me to vote the wrong person kicked once before). If I notice someone getting dumped on, I speak out. Most of the time the abuser backs off the abuse part and goes back to just pointing out what he/she views as the problem. I try to confirm in the meters. While doing that I usually whisper the accused/victim a question "first time?" or "do you know this fight?" They admit they're a noob, I focus on my /whispers to that person and am free to /ignore the asshat. If the rest of the raid boots the guy I'm working with, oh well. I did what I could.

I've also seen an entire LFR go from just "ignoring the abusive asshat" to banding against said asshat simply by getting the guy to "come at me" instead of his earlier target. It is much easier to do when you are the top healer, or top dps, but it is possible to be the catalyst for social change without being it's undeniable champion. Anyway, I can calmly continue to rebuke his demeanor (as I am handling this thread)... sometimes the rest of the LFR jumps in and marginalizes him. They don't always VTK the guy, because sometimes it is the Top DPS/DMG Done who feels entitled to being an ass. But at least, he's focused on someone who has thick skin(me) rather than someone who might actually be hurting, new, confused, a kid... etc. What is really great is if I can get the asshole to stop posting his venom in /rsay and move to /whisper just to me. That's a big win in my book.

I've had people create fresh toons on our server to say thanks. I've had people create fresh toons on our server to apologize for their demeanor while reiterating that they were justified.

Quote 1: Do you do this in your own raids?

Quote 2: Do you actually get results in your raids? How far is your progression? Sorry if the second one seems like I am lording my own progression over you, but it is the only real way to understand if you are actually getting results.

Quote 3: Do you do these things in your own raids? Ignoring the asshattery parts of this particular quote, focus on the "Is this person doing something wrong that can be fixed?" part. You stepped across the line of the discussion of just "abuse" whenever you entered into a discussion about "performance".

FYI: The whole point of Arch coming into this thread was for that very reason.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo