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ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
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reply to alkizmo

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

I think you can probably bring that station down with the a-fore-mentioned high gain antenna TheTechGuru posted.

Couple it with a proper in-line pre-amplifier (this would be a good one to start with - »www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc···79001809 ) near the antenna and it'll be a wicked installation.

Remember, amplifiers amplify noise along with signal. So, if you have a crappy signal at the output of your antenna, that crappy signal is going to be worse after going through the amp.

Consider using quad-shield coax between your antenna, pre-amp and then your distribution block.

BUT - if you try to use this combination for any of your closer stations, you're going to overload the front end of your tuner section and probably won't have much to work with to get a station (too much signal is just as bad as not enough).

@Jack - Water and land have very different signal propagation characteristics - the two really can't be compared.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by ke4pym:

I think you can probably bring that station down with the a-fore-mentioned high gain antenna TheTechGuru posted.

BUT - if you try to use this combination for any of your closer stations, you're going to overload the front end of your tuner section and probably won't have much to work with to get a station (too much signal is just as bad as not enough).

Well, from all the info from you guys, what I might do is buy the 91XG for the far away stations, and a cheaper smaller UHF/VHF antenna for the local stations. They are basicall 90 degrees apart in direction, so instead of buying a motor, I'd just install two antennas pointed in two directions, and the signal strenght issue would be resolved.

I'm going to shop for where to buy them at the best price, and start reading up on baluns, pre-amps, and combining the two antennas.

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPo
·Verizon Broadban..
·RoadRunner Cable
·Northland Cable ..

If you wanna get really freaky:

Find a preamp with 300-ohm input. Then get some of the old school twin lead cable to run from the antenna to the pre-amp. Skip the balun all together. Switch to 75-ohm coax after the preamp on the mast.

Twin lead has some of the best signal interference rejection out there.

You *have* to use stand offs though. The cable can't come anywhere near your mast.

Careful with the extra antennas. Those can induce multipath issues. But most modern tuners are pretty well equipped to handle that kind of thing now.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1

reply to ke4pym

said by ke4pym:

@Jack - Water and land have very different signal propagation characteristics - the two really can't be compared.

Thanks but I didn't ask for a critique of my statement. I was just clarifying how I am presently using my setup which is only backup as I use Directv for my primary source. I know the performance very well is different land vs water.

The Channel Master CM4228 coupled with the Channel Master RM7777 RF Amp is a great combo. Good quality amps don't overload the tuners so that is a non-issue using a good amp and quality receiver.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
Reviews:
·WesTex Connect

reply to ke4pym

said by ke4pym:

If you wanna get really freaky:

Find a preamp with 300-ohm input. Then get some of the old school twin lead cable to run from the antenna to the pre-amp. Skip the balun all together. Switch to 75-ohm coax after the preamp on the mast.

Twin lead has some of the best signal interference rejection out there.

You *have* to use stand offs though. The cable can't come anywhere near your mast.

Careful with the extra antennas. Those can induce multipath issues. But most modern tuners are pretty well equipped to handle that kind of thing now.

Meh, I prefer a inline line powered preamp screwed right into the matching transformer on the antenna.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

reply to alkizmo
That is almost exactly what I have done (two antennas at 90 degree angle to each other). Ideally those antennas should be spaced 2 * wavelength apart to prevent them from effecting each other in unpredictable ways.

That is usually not a problem for the short wavelength of UHF but the wavelength for VHF band III (VHF-Hi) is up to 1.7 meters (VHF band I or VHF-Lo would be up to 6 meters!).

I solved this by having one antenna on a roof antenna mast while the other antenna is on a chimney mount.

Don't sweat it too much if you can't separate them that far, just know that for best results you maintain some distance between them.

The other advise I read while planning my setup was to keep the length of the antenna cable from each antenna to the splitter/combiner exactly the same length (to keep signals arriving on both antennas in phase).
--
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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1

reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

Well, from all the info from you guys, what I might do is buy the 91XG for the far away stations, and a cheaper smaller UHF/VHF antenna for the local stations. They are basicall 90 degrees apart in direction, so instead of buying a motor, I'd just install two antennas pointed in two directions, and the signal strenght issue would be resolved.

I'm going to shop for where to buy them at the best price, and start reading up on baluns, pre-amps, and combining the two antennas.

With the changeover most stations are on UHF so a VHF antenna will do nothing for you. We have one station here that reverted to their original VHF Channel 13 but being it's so high I can receive it with my UHF antenna though the signal level is much lower than the other UHF channels.

Don't waste your money. Just get a good UHF antenna and amp.

Check these out and shop for price. Solid Signal has them or at least they did when I bought mine from them.


Channel Master 4228HD 8-bay HDTV/UHF TV Antenna (4228-HD)

Or better here:

»www.channelmasterstore.com/Outdo···s/20.htm


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1

reply to ke4pym

said by ke4pym:

If you wanna get really freaky:

Find a preamp with 300-ohm input. Then get some of the old school twin lead cable to run from the antenna to the pre-amp. Skip the balun all together. Switch to 75-ohm coax after the preamp on the mast.

Twin lead has some of the best signal interference rejection out there.

You *have* to use stand offs though. The cable can't come anywhere near your mast.

Careful with the extra antennas. Those can induce multipath issues. But most modern tuners are pretty well equipped to handle that kind of thing now.

Why would someone want to revert back to 1950's technology with 300 ohm twinlead? You'll have ghosting and multi-path freezes and blocking. The preamp goes right at the antenna so there's really no need for twinlead.


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

reply to Jack_in_VA
I have the CM 4224 (basically half of the CM 4228) and can recommend it but the antenna linked to by TheTechGuru See Profile has 4dB more gain then either the CM 4228 or the HD-8800. If those specs are correct it would be the better choice.
--
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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1

reply to leibold

said by leibold:

That is almost exactly what I have done (two antennas at 90 degree angle to each other). Ideally those antennas should be spaced 2 * wavelength apart to prevent them from effecting each other in unpredictable ways.

That is usually not a problem for the short wavelength of UHF but the wavelength for VHF band III (VHF-Hi) is up to 1.7 meters (VHF band I or VHF-Lo would be up to 6 meters!).

I solved this by having one antenna on a roof antenna mast while the other antenna is on a chimney mount.

Don't sweat it too much if you can't separate them that far, just know that for best results you maintain some distance between them.

The other advise I read while planning my setup was to keep the length of the antenna cable from each antenna to the splitter/combiner exactly the same length (to keep signals arriving on both antennas in phase).

What are you receiving on VHF? We have one channel that reverted to VHF-13 after the changeover at the request of the station and FCC to avert interference with another station. Otherwise everything is UHF.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

reply to leibold
Ok let's focus on getting to the 85 miles away stations on UHF only. I can deal with the local stations with a second smaller antenna placed away from the big one.

I'm still torn here on whether I go directional (XG91) or multi-element (HD 4228).

They are both available locally to me at the same price (100$).

TechGuru recommended directionals yagis.
Leibold recommended multi elements.
Then everyone else is on either camps.

What do?

Notes: Tree will not come down (if it makes a difference for either antenna).



fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

Buy both and return one?



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

1 edit

reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

What are you receiving on VHF?

KGO (ABC) and KNTV (NBC) are transmitting in VHF band III. Last time I checked there was even a pending application to transmit on channel 6 (VHF band I) but I don't see that any longer.

The furthest away station that I'm receiving is KRCB (73 miles) on UHF. All other stations are half that distance or closer.

Edit: I should probably add that neither of my two antennas has a pre-amp. I do however use a cheap amplified splitter inside the home.
--
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alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

reply to fartness

said by fartness:

Buy both and return one?

One of them is from a store with no return unless defective (exchange only) policy.

Also I'd rather not be playing on my roof switching back and forth between two antennas :P
AND, the tree doesn't have leaves anymore at this time of the year, so I wouldn't be able to test how they behave differently in summer time.


fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

Are you trying to pick up a station from Ottawa? Is it on satellite or cable?



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

TechGuru recommended directionals yagis.
Leibold recommended multi elements.

Based on the specifications the XG91 is the clear winner. I just recommended what I have experience with.

Before purchasing the antenna also check the space requirements which are very different for those two types of antennas.

While I don't advocate cutting down the tree I do agree on avoiding the tree in the straight line between antenna and transmitter. Consider a different location for the antenna mast or using a taller one.
--
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resare

join:2012-11-07
Greenfield Park, QC

reply to alkizmo
trees DO matter !

I get better signal in the winter months (no leaves in the trees).



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1

said by resare:

trees DO matter !

I get better signal in the winter months (no leaves in the trees).

Leaves play heck with the UHF signals. Mostly multipath problems.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

reply to leibold

said by leibold:

While I don't advocate cutting down the tree I do agree on avoiding the tree in the straight line between antenna and transmitter. Consider a different location for the antenna mast or using a taller one.

To go above the tree, I'd have to go a good 70 feet up.

HOWEVER, if I move the antenna away from the originally planned location, and put it over my garage, I could avoid the tree from the LOS. I'd go down to 10-15 feet elevation, but I guess losing 15 feet is better than having a tree in the way.

Jack_in_VA, that amp.... too TOO expensive, woah

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
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·RoadRunner Cable
·Northland Cable ..

reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by ke4pym:

@Jack - Water and land have very different signal propagation characteristics - the two really can't be compared.

Thanks but I didn't ask for a critique of my statement. I was just clarifying how I am presently using my setup which is only backup as I use Directv for my primary source. I know the performance very well is different land vs water.

The Channel Master CM4228 coupled with the Channel Master RM7777 RF Amp is a great combo. Good quality amps don't overload the tuners so that is a non-issue using a good amp and quality receiver.

Then you really shouldn't have brought the two up as they're irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

An amp's quality, while important, isn't the case here. If it amplifies a strong (read: local) signal too much, you're going to overload the front end of the receiver. While there are amps that have gain control, I don't know of any preamp based systems that offer AGC (that wouldn't compete with the tuner's own AGC circuit).

And just because you may have a quality display, it doesn't always mean its going to have a quality receiver on board. Which, again, if presented with too much signal (IE trying to amplify local signals) will overload. This is true for any receiver. Not just TV.

If the station's xmitter is indeed on a 3000 foot mountain, with say even a small 100' tower, I doubt a 30' tree is going to present much of an issue. Unless, it's like, 100' wide or something.

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