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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to cowspotter

Re: Electric Vehicle Charging Station

A Volt is the same $$ as a leaf, will last allot longer ( look into the leaf battery issue as the leaf has no thermal management ) and your never have to worry how far you can drive.

I drive 100% electric most days, and when its further, that when the range extender kicks in.

before you buy check out

»www.mynissanleaf.com/
»gm-volt.com/


tedmarshall

join:2000-12-02

Disclaimer: I own a Leaf.

Right now, Nissan has some very attractive leases on 2012's.

There are definitely questions of the battery's longevity in warm climates. In Florida, I would think about a short lease; there are nice 2-year leases available. In my climate, there are not (yet) problems.

Personally, I don't like the interior of the Volt. I felt like I was sitting in a hole.

Also, Ford is coming out with a nice plug-in hybrid, not as far electric-only range as the volt, but still worth looking at.

Definitely do your homework.



Grumpy
Premium
join:2001-07-28
NW CT
reply to cowspotter

I wonder how many kWh it takes to charge a car and how that compares to buying gasoline? Reason I ask is our electric costs around $0.25 a kWh when you add in all the fees and taxes. I'm told in western NY the rate is around $0.49. Not sure though.



cowspotter

join:2000-09-11
Ashburn, VA
kudos:2

I should have a better idea of charging statistics when my 240v charger is installed, but a rough idea is:

120v charger
12a
1440w = 1.4kw
8 hours to fully charge
11.2 kwh

Our effective rate is $0.128/kwh so $1.43 per full charge. A full charge gets me around 40 miles. These numbers may be a little off since this isn't based on calculated usage but it should be close.


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to cowspotter

For most Electric vehicles its about 13 kwh for 40 miles of range, which includes the charging losses

Here in Florida, including all taxes, its 13 cents kwh or about 1.70 equivalent to gallon gas ( assumes your car can get 40mpg )

New York avaerge is @ 20 cents, western would actually be lower as its main source is hydro from Niagara Falls, using this site

»www.saveonenergy.com/states/natu···/cities/

Shows its about a 5 cents less, and it varies greatly from city to city with taxes



John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
reply to tedmarshall

As a big Honda fan, I think I am just going to wait until I can at least check out the plug-in hybrid Accord that is due in January 2013 as a 2014 model.
--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


tedmarshall

join:2000-12-02

1 recommendation

reply to Grumpy

said by Grumpy:

I wonder how many kWh it takes to charge a car and how that compares to buying gasoline? Reason I ask is our electric costs around $0.25 a kWh when you add in all the fees and taxes. I'm told in western NY the rate is around $0.49. Not sure though.

The Leaf runs about 3.5 miles/KWh, depending on weather, speed, driving style, etc, and including charging loss at 240V. If you're really paying $0.49/KWh (which is quite high), you'll run around $0.14/mile or the equivalent of $4.90 gas in a 35 MPG car. Still not bad, especially when you add the lack of maintenance costs on an EV.


dosdoxies
Premium
join:2004-12-15
Wallingford, PA

1 edit
reply to cowspotter

What is the estimated life span of the batteries in the Leaf? And the replacement costs?


tedmarshall

join:2000-12-02

said by dosdoxies:

What is the estimated life span of the batteries in the Leaf? And the replacement costs?

Those are the big questions. Nissan has informally stated that the average driver will see 80% capacity left after 5 years of driving. However, there are some drivers in Phoenix already down under 80%!

Nissan explicitly doesn't warranty battery capacity, only "sudden failure".

This is why I said that drivers in hot climates should plan on 2 or 3-year leases. I live in a pretty temperate climate and after 1 year & 15K miles, I'm seeing very little capacity loss.

As for replacement cost, I've heard that Nissan will replace a battery pack in a car for $5K. The certainly won't sell it for that to a random person for some other purpose. However, no one seems to be able to get a price out of Nissan.

Part of this may be that Nissan is just starting battery production here in the US (TN) and this may drop the price significantly.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2

Meh.

Batteries suck.

I want a Fuel Cell car.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to cowspotter

I was interested in the kwh to mpg conversions -- I'm glad people posted some up!

For what its worth (and this was from Jan 2011) I paid the following in nyc.

Approx:
8.9744¢/kwh supply charge
9.8645¢/kwh delivery charge
0.2992¢/kwh surcharge
0.3785¢/kwh surcharge

It works out to about 19.5166¢/kwh not including the fixed monthly fees.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8



TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2
Reviews:
·HughesNet Satell..
·WesTex Connect

said by PhoenixDown:

I was interested in the kwh to mpg conversions -- I'm glad people posted some up!

For what its worth (and this was from Jan 2011) I paid the following in nyc.

Approx:
8.9744¢/kwh supply charge
9.8645¢/kwh delivery charge
0.2992¢/kwh surcharge
0.3785¢/kwh surcharge

It works out to about 19.5166¢/kwh not including the fixed monthly fees.

Wow! We're usually always under 10 cents per kw/hr here in TX.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
·surpasshosting
reply to PhoenixDown

Being in the electrical business I hate to say this, but many times an electric car or plugin hybrid just doesn't make sense. A Honda Civic can get 40+ MPG. A Passat TDI easily gets over 40 MPG. No plugging in. No massive (toxic) battery packs. No government subsidies required.
Now if you live somewhere where electricity is dirt cheap, that's another story.
Although, with WW3 about to break out, and gas prices fluctuating wildly - who knows?
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.



SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
reply to cowspotter

The best alternative fuel for vehicles at the moment seems to be CNG (compressed natural gas). Quite a few fleet vehicles including heavy trucks are now migrating to it. If the infrastructure for refueling was in place or at least developing, I think it could be the next major fuel source for consumer vehicles.



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to cowspotter

Here is some more info ... apparently "MPGe" is starting to be used to help people better compare electric cars to gas cars. 33.7 kilowatt hours of electricity is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline is the base metric.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_···uivalent

33.7 x $0.20 = $6.74 compared to approx $3.90 to $4.20 for regular gas around here.

TheTechGuru --

yeah, our rates are crazy! Does your 10 cent rate include transport fees? Mine does.

nunya --

I completely agree. I bought my 2006 Civic in March of that year and people were expecting us to hit $5 a gallon for regular by summer. I did a few comparisons based on my driving habits at the time and how many more miles I might add if I switched jobs and drove to work and I think the break even point would have been around $6 a gallon for me which we never hit. Outside of feeling good and going green, I would've lost money had I gone with a hybrid.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to cowspotter

Some more info I found, not sure how accurate

Roadster: 30 kWh / 100 mi
LEAF: 33 kWh / 100 mi
Volt: 36 kWh / 100 mi

»physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/201···ic-cars/

==========

So if I take 33 kWh x my rate of $0.20 = $6.60 per 100 miles.
$6.60 divided by 100 Miles = $0.066 per mile.

My Civic gets 40mpg on the highway per EPA
$4.00 per gal of regular divided by 40 miles = $0.1 per mile

So going by this calculation it would be a 30% savings or the equivilent of $2.80 a gallon

==================

Now I am totally confused and not sure what to think on ROI.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8



BK

join:2001-09-10
Chicago, IL

It really depends on how many miles you drive. Which is interesting... because the LEAF can only go so far. Yours seems to be the worst case scenario for 3 reasons:

1. $0.20 / kWh seems quite high to me, but your mileage my vary
2. civics get very good mpg
3. gas prices have been trending down since the summer peak

my situation:
I pay $0.13 / kWh here (do you count fees and such in yours? I did in mine for what its worth). My civic gets 36 mpg (non hybrid, 2008), $3.50 a gallon where I fill up lately

a Leaf for me:
(33 kWh * $0.13) / 100 = $0.0429 / mile

my civic:
so that would mean $3.50 / gal / 36 = $.097 / mile

I'd save about a $0.0543 a mile, and I go ~15k miles a year, thats ~$814 a year in savings for me. But I couldn't actually go that far in a leaf because the battery would die.

No but seriously. You can go what, 60 miles on a charge? Can you realistically drive it more than that in a day? Would it fully charge in ~8 hours? Meaning drive 60 miles to work, charge, drive 60 miles back?
--



BK

join:2001-09-10
Chicago, IL

»docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?···WZXVTTWc

i got bored. it should be fairly obvious. i even added a "years to break even" thing!

oh and try not to break it


--


ncbill
Premium
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast
reply to cowspotter

At the average U.S. price/kWh, EVs cost about 4 cents/mile.

In commuting use, stop and go traffic, your non-hybrid gas engine will only get you about 20mpg, so @$4/gallon that's 20 cents/mile.

You can see the huge advantage in operating costs.

Unfortunately, we've only recently started making large-format battery packs (sufficient power & service life, yet light enough to use in a vehicle), so battery packs are still very expensive.

Also, there's nothing "toxic" about a lithium-based battery pack.

Maybe the other poster was thinking about the rare earths used in making electric motors, as their extraction is not very environmentally friendly (though one can build EV motors w/o rare earths)


Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·Embarq Now Centu..
·Comcast
·CenturyLink
reply to tedmarshall

When we lived in South Florida my wife purchased a 2006 Lexus RX-400h hybrid to replace a Volvo Cross Country. The Cross Country got about 12 Miles per gallon and required premium fuel. She traveled 25 miles each way to work through bumper to bumper traffic. A friend that owned an RX-300 only got about 14 miles to the gallon so my wife decided to purchase the hybrid. When she replaced the Volvo she was very pleased because fuel mileage went from 12 Miles per gallon on premium to 24 to 26 Miles per gallon on regular.

That seemed great until we moved to Central Florida when the fuel mileage dropped to around 22 miles to the gallon. When we replaced the RX-400h with an RX-350 which was not a hybrid. The RX-350 got from 19 to 22 Miles to the gallon. The only reason that we did not loose our shirts on the $7,000.00 difference in price between an RX-300 and RX-400h was that there was an income tax credit on the purchase and an incentive by Lexus on the sale of the RX-400h because fuel prices had dropped.

We traded in the RX-400h when gas prices were high and the Lexus dealer was offering an incentive on the purchase of a non hybrid RX. We broke even but if it were not for the incentives and tax credits and timing on the purchase of the replacement vehicle, overall I would have lost my shirt. When I ran the numbers on the purchase of another RX hybrid I would have recovered the difference in cost if I kept the vehicle from 7 to 9 years if my wife was still driving the same route in South Florida. That was without considering the cost of replacing the traction battery.



Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Cogeco Cable

said by Mr Matt:

When I ran the numbers on the purchase of another RX hybrid I would have recovered the difference in cost if I kept the vehicle from 7 to 9 years if my wife was still driving the same route in South Florida.

You have put a lot of careful thought into all this.

What gets me are another sort that go overboard trying to analyze break-even points based on fuel economy, trying to 'prove' a vehicle like the RX hybrid a bad decision.

People routinely purchase less efficient larger engined versions of non-hybrid vehicles based on a desire for more power. This isn't wrong, it is just a choice. One can't calculate a number like fuel economy to 'justify' the decision.

In your case, you got better fuel economy + a significant power upgrade from your RX400h. Not having to refill the tank as often wins in my eyes too.
--
The talented hawk speaks French.


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by Cho Baka:

What gets me are another sort that go overboard trying to analyze break-even points based on fuel economy, trying to 'prove' a vehicle like the RX hybrid a bad decision.

Hope you don't think I am one of then! There are certainly a lot of factors as you mentioned.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2
reply to ncbill

I still say the long term future is hydrogen fuel cells.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified



Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Cogeco Cable
reply to PhoenixDown

Given the research you are doing, I am sure you will be happy with your final decision.

If you want to throw another variable in, there is also the Plug-in Prius. Smaller electric-only range (subsequent driving is hybrid) than the others you mentioned, but with a lower price (starts at 32 k).

Pros are far better gasoline fuel economy than the Volt, lower price and a shorter charge time. The tradeoff is a smaller battery capacity.

»www.toyota.com/prius-plug-in/
--
The talented hawk speaks French.



cowspotter

join:2000-09-11
Ashburn, VA
kudos:2
reply to cowspotter

My blink charging station was installed on Saturday. The installer called because he his scheduled appointment wasn't ready for the install so he was scrambling to find a way to use his crew for the day. Since the circuit was already installed the job took about 45 minutes.

I'm loving charging with a level 2 charger. The unit is pretty complicated and so far has done 2 major updates that took several hours each.