World of Warcraft → Re: [Lore] Klaxxi, sha, spoilers, speculation

They breed very fast due to the sha.

And I guess Korven needs to knock back a sixer every night in order to cope with the stress.

Can someone post these two posts?

»wow.joystiq.com/2012/11/ ··· -a-well/

»wow.joystiq.com/2012/11/ ··· ontinued

It is also amazing that those tanlets are still their every day after work. I know millions were grabbed while i was at work. BTW that is some big tablet.

First gen iPad, bro.

Know Your Lore, Tinfoil Hat Edition: When is a well not a well?

by Anne Stickney Nov 4th 2012 at 8:00PM
Know Your Lore, Tinfoil Hat Edition When is a well not a well SUN
The World of Warcraft is an expansive universe. You're playing the game, you're fighting the bosses, you know the how -- but do you know the why? Each week, Matthew Rossi and Anne Stickney make sure you Know Your Lore by covering the history of the story behind World of Warcraft.

When is a well not a well?

The Well of Eternity is one of the most important objects in Azeroth's history. A font of magical water with incredible properties, it has been the subject of at least two wars. First, there was the War of the Ancients, in which kaldorei fought Highborne while the Burning Legion threatened to invade. Next, the Third War, in which Archimonde sought to dominate Hyjal and the powers of the Well beneath it's roots.

But the Well has also changed Azeroth in a significant way. The kaldorei wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the waters of the Well. Neither would the sin'dorei or their curious state of magical addiction. And if rumors are to be believed, there are several races on Pandaria whose roots tie into the mysterious waters of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms -- also speculated to be a remnant of that original Well of Eternity.

The origins of the Well are shrouded in mystery. It's simply something the Titans created countless centuries ago. Or ... is it? When is a well not a well at all?

Today's Know Your Lore is a Tinfoil Hat edition, meaning the following is a look into what has gone before with pure speculation on what is to come as a result. These speculations are merely theories and shouldn't be taken as fact or official lore.

The origin of the Well of Eternity

We don't really have much information at all about the Well of Eternity. We know it was vast, and it took up a giant chunk of the original Kalimdor continent prior to the Sundering. It drew its energies from the Great Dark Beyond itself, and it was a never-ending supply of one of Azeroth's most precious, sought after and fought-over resources: magic. Various texts in troll history suggest that the night elves themselves were a product of the Well of Eternity, trolls that stumbled upon the waters and evolved.

Those trolls were then transformed into the kaldorei. And the kaldorei grew smarter, stronger, and more powerful than the trolls they evolved from. The kaldorei nation proceeded to decimate the mighty troll Empires, claiming the lands around the Well as just one small fraction of their settlements. Because the kaldorei have always been tied to the Well of Eternity; it's something that's in their blood. And the sin'dorei, with their curious addiction to magic, are still tied to it as well.

In Pandaria, the Vale of Eternal Blossoms contains water that is identical to the Well at the foot of Nordrassil on Hyjal Summit. Many suggest that the water in the Vale is in fact a remnant of the Well of Eternity. Documented pandaren history suggests that this is true, given the origin of the jinyu, grummles and saurok -- all shaped, much like the kaldorei of old, by the magical water. The evidence is further suggested by quality of the water; crops watered in the Valley of the Four Winds grow to monstrous proportions, as do the flowers that dot the edges of the Well in Hyjal.

History states that the Titans carefully placed the Well on Azeroth, but the reasons for its placement are unknown. Some would say it was obviously to fuel the Titans' efforts at creating life and order on our fragile world. I've speculated in the past that the Well was a trap of sorts, something to lure the Burning Legion to Azeroth, suggesting that perhaps our existence is nothing more than a trap waiting to be sprung on Sargeras.

Sargeras and the Well of Eternity

Which makes sense in its own odd way, given what we've been presented with so far. History states that the kaldorei grew so powerful that they began experimenting with the Well of Eternity, harnessing its magical properties and using them at their own whim and fancy. It was this usage that supposedly caught the attention of Sargeras, who then made his presence known to the Highborne.

He presented himself to Queen Azshara and her councilor Xavius, and they took him for a god. Worshiping his presence, they swore to bring him to Azeroth in exchange for his knowledge and the power he could grant them. To Azshara, this was the beginning of a world of divine perfection, one in which those she deemed unfit would simply cease to exist, and all would bow to her majesty as was only proper.

History states that Sargeras wanted the Well and its powers for his own. But why would a being of ultimate power want a Well of ultimate power? If Sargeras is powerful enough to command an army the size of the Burning Legion, if he is powerful enough to end worlds, if he is powerful enough to bend the universe to a path of chaos and destruction at his whim, what does he need with a Well of Eternity? Why would he hunger for something that is, at its heart, a source of creation -- not a source of destruction?

Because the Well of Eternity didn't represent power. It represented the answer to a question Sargeras had been asking himself repeatedly, for untold centuries.

How does one kill a Titan?

The secret of the Well of Eternity

Once upon a time, in the darkest days of Azeroth, the Old Gods came forth and sought to conquer the fragile planet. They appointed Elemental Lords, lieutenants to oversee their vast armies of destruction and death. Because the Old Gods weren't interested in ruling over the world -- they were simply interested in chaos. Beautiful, pure chaos the likes of which even the Burning Legion couldn't comprehend. Sargeras may have only begun to understand the true nature of chaos when he fell from grace, but the Old Gods embraced it. It was their existence.

And as Azeroth quailed under the thrall of these malignant entities, the Titans arrived. They saw what the Old Gods were trying to accomplish, and they wanted to put an end to it. The Titans are the antithesis of everything the Old Gods stand for. While the Old Gods seek death and chaos, the Titans seek order, the order of creation itself. When the two clashed, a war broke out -- the most horrific war that Azeroth had, at that time, witnessed.

Titan clashed against Old God, and at least one Old God fell. The dread beast Y'shaarj was one of those that met his end. In his last, terrible breath, he cursed the lands around him with the Sha that still haunt the lands of Pandaria to this day. Whether other Old Gods were destroyed as well has been lost to the annals of time -- but Titan records state that the Titans discovered killing the Old Gods would end Azeroth's existence. And so the Old Gods were imprisoned deep beneath the earth, left to rot.

The Titans created the Aspects to watch over the world. They created guardians to watch over Titan facilities and keep their secrets safe. They created areas like Un'goro Crater and Sholazar Basin as testing grounds, experimental areas that teemed with all kinds of new life. And according to some portions of history, they created the Well, carefully placing it at the heart of Kalimdor.

According to other portions of history, the Titans did not escape this war unscathed. Some say a Titan died on the fields of Silithus while killing an Old God. Many thought this meant that C'thun was the supposed dead god. But the dead Old God was revealed to be Y'shaarj, on Pandaria. What if the fallen Titan wasn't anywhere near Silithus -- what if he fell in combat with Y'shaarj?

When is a well not a well?

When it is the blood of a Titan that has been dead for centuries.

The blood of Life itself

A Titan is a being of creation. It can bend and shape worlds to its whim. It is nothing more than a catalyst for life -- neverending, teeming life in all its complex beauty. In life is order, in order is everything a Titan stands for. It is everything a Titan is. To kill a Titan is to kill life itself -- and what happens when a Titan dies? We don't know. There isn't a lot of recorded history about that. Because as far as we know, only one Titan in the history of existence has died, and it was on Azeroth.

What do you do with a body? That may be something the Titans asked themselves, and they likely didn't have an appropriate answer for it. The lesser races, the engineered races, bury their dead. Perhaps the Titans thought that an appropriate way to dispose of their fallen comrade, carefully placing him in Azeroth's soil, laying him to rest. The unnamed Titan would sleep at the heart of the planet he had died so valiantly defending. And that's when things got incredibly weird.

Because a Titan is nothing more than a catalyst for life. And just as the Sha proved that the Old Gods can never truly die, the Well of Eternity proved that neither can a Titan. The corpse of that fallen Titan wept life-giving blood, the blood of a maker itself, and flooded Azeroth with the unending power that only the Titans possess. The power of creation, of magic, of the ability to make life itself, to elevate races beyond their normal prowess into something otherworldly, something far beyond what they could ever imagine to be.

That is the reason the Well has those remarkable powers. It's not water at all. It's the blood of the Titan that died defending Azeroth from the Old Gods. As a corpse of a being that is made of creation itself, it can never truly decay, never really fall to dust. It can only weep its essence into the very world it sought to protect, a never-ending stream of creation's power seeping into the soil of Azeroth. Transforming races, causing wars, and providing a source of fascination and ultimately addiction for the Highborne and later, the sin'dorei.

The allure of the Well of Eternity

What the Highborne were unknowingly doing was playing with the essence of a dead Titan. They were using what remained of that corpse's powers to create their own kind of magic. They harnessed the power that leeched from where that Titan had been laid to rest, and they used it to their advantage. Why, exactly, do you think the detonation of the Well was powerful enough to cause continents to separate? Part of it was the portal -- and part of it was because they were literally playing with the powers of a fallen god.

And that is what caught Sargeras' attention. It wasn't the fact that these creatures were playing with untold amounts of power -- goodness knows the eredar had more than enough of their own. We are not remarkable. We have never been remarkable. We were little more than specks, motes of dust in the eyes of Sargeras at that point in time. He didn't care about Azshara, Xavius, or the battle between kaldorei and Highborne. That wasn't what Sargeras was interested in at all.

It was the Well -- or rather, it was the blood of the dead Titan. History only has one recorded instance of a Titan dying, and it happened here on Azeroth. How did it die? What was powerful enough to kill it? That's what Sargeras wanted to know. Because there is one thing that Sargeras would like more than anything else in the universe, and that is to rid existence itself of the Titans and their influence.

He wants them gone. He wants them dead. They are unnatural, the antithesis to everything the universe is and should be, as far as Sargeras is concerned. But there was no real way to destroy the Titans, there was only a way to destroy their creations and wreck the work they had already accomplished. As far as Sargeras knew, there was no method in which one could actually kill a Titan.

Until he encountered Azeroth, saw the Well, saw what the kaldorei were doing with it, and recognized that Well for what it was. Someone, somewhere, somehow on Azeroth, something had figured out how to destroy a Titan. The evidence was there, has been there all along, right under our nose. And Sargeras doesn't care about us, our power, our influence, or anything else -- he wants to know how that Titan was killed, so he can use that power to kill the rest of the Pantheon and eliminate them forever. The water holds the secret. He just has to get his hands on it.

Wrathion's War

Is the water in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms really a remnant of that original Well of Eternity? The answer may not be as far off as you'd think. If one sits long enough at the northern border of the lake at the heart of the Vale, one will eventually encounter visitors. Two of them, to be precise -- agents of Wrathion, last of the Black Dragonflight. The two stroll around the lake, taking surveys and having a quiet conversation about whether or not the pandaren know exactly what they are sitting on. And those agents are worried.

They aren't worried because of the ongoing war between Alliance and Horde. As agents of Wrathion, he's likely told them just as much, if not more, than he tells players when they begin the legendary questline. Azeroth is headed for a reckoning the likes of which has not been seen since the War of the Ancients. The Well at Nordrassil is only a small fraction of that original Well's power -- it's just a tiny pool, fueled by small vials of Titan blood.

Sargeras hasn't made much of a move on Azeroth since getting Medivh to open the Dark Portal. Medivh's defeat set the fallen Titan back, but that doesn't mean he's done with Azeroth. His attention has likely been drawn elsewhere. But Pandaria is no longer shrouded, and the waters of the Vale shine like a beacon, drawing the races of Azeroth like bees to honey. The tauren and night elves both had visions of the Vale, it's what drew them to Pandaria, not the orders of their faction leaders.

It shines like a beacon to the rest of the universe. Sparkling, glimmering, beckoning, it calls to the being who sought it out originally, the one who thought his plan had failed when Malfurion destroyed the Well of Eternity during the War of the Ancients. Mark my words -- when Wrathion says we're headed for a reckoning, he's not talking about Old Gods. He's talking about Sargeras, about the Burning Legion. He knows there's something special about the water in the Vale, he just isn't telling us about it. Yet.

At the moment, we have other, more pressing matters to worry about ... matters that seem to pale in comparison to what will surely come in due time.

Know Your Lore TFH: Flesh of the Makers

by Matthew Rossi Nov 7th 2012 at 12:00PM

The World of Warcraft is an expansive universe. You're playing the game, you're fighting the bosses, you know the how -- but do you know the why? Each week, Matthew Rossi and Anne Stickney make sure you Know Your Lore by covering the history of the story behind World of Warcraft.

Spoilers for Mists of Pandaria and Patch 5.1 in this post

This post is a Tinfoil Hat continuing off of concepts found in that previous post, so be warned.

Okay, now we jump off from there. Because this all started when discussing the recent patch 5.1 sound files, one of which includes a voice file of a certain king reading aloud a description of the Divine Bell. What's the Divine Bell? Well, according to said voice files, it was a device crafted by the ancient mogu which, when struck, resounded with a sound that caused fury and chaos, and drove the mogu armies into a state of frenzy and rage that made them unbeatable in combat. And it was supposedly "cast from the Makers' flesh, shaped by star's fire, and bound by the breath of darkest shadow." As you might expect, the first question I asked was, what does cast from the Makers' flesh mean?

Throughout Pandaria we've seen evidence of the Titans presence and their work in reshaping Azeroth. Both Mogu'shan Palace and Vaults as well as the yet unexplored Terrace of Endless Spring hold hints of being constructed by the Titans or their servants, just as Ulduar and Uldum and Uldaman were. The discs that create Elegon remind us of the discs of Norgannon left behind in Uldaman, although warped by the Mogu. And we've repeatedly been told that the mogu were themselves once a race of brutes exposed to the waters of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, uplifted by its waters just as the ancient silithid became the Qiraji before being warped by the Old Gods, just as the night elves were. But all of that doesn't quite answer one question - where did the mogu get the flesh of a Maker? And more importantly, if the Divine Bell is merely the greatest creation of the mogu, does that mean they were working with such rare materials before they cast the Bell?

The flesh of the maker is not flesh

What we know of the Titans is fragmentary at best. In fact, we don't know much at all outside of some names and a vague history told to us by servants. What they're like, what they do, these are things we have very little understanding of. We know that they left enormous installations on the surface of Azeroth, but even then, we have no idea if the Titans themselves ever walked those halls or if they were crafted for their servitors and creations to inhabit. Ulduar, for instance, is enormous and populated by Watchers and giants, but we could fairly easily assume that the Titans themselves are many times larger than those we encountered in the complex. It was strongly hinted during the War of the Ancients that Sargeras required almost all the power of the Well of Eternity merely to enter Azeroth, and the avatar of Sargeras used to deceive Aegwynn was itself massive. It may seem foolish to belabor that the Titans were big - of course they were big, you might be shouting, they're called Titans - but here one needs to consider that it may not be merely size that's the issue.

The Titans are entities of vast power. We know of the Pantheon, the council that leads and directs its efforts, again mostly from the evocations and invocations of their servants such as Freya in Ulduar calling upon Eonar for aid. The Pantheon is said to be the leadership of the Titans as a race, however, which implies there are many, many more of them. Furthermore, the fall of Sargeras shows us that the Titans embody ideals and personify cosmic forces, and when a Titan's mind or beliefs change, so too does their body. Before his fall, Sargeras is said to have been a mighty bronze skinned warrior, but as he began to doubt the wisdom of the Titans' mission his form began to shift and crack, and as his anger and resentment grew, Sargeras' body melted and exploded outward in a shower of flame, warping him into a seething demonic presence.

The dream embodied

What this implies is staggering. The Titans are conceptual beings, entities who so embody and personify ideas that their very flesh can and does change if the ideals they hold are changed. When Sargeras went from Defender to Destroyer, he didn't just change his mind about the wisdom of his people's effort to shape the cosmos, he changed what he was. So, too, for Aggramar. Becoming the Avenger didn't mean what it would for a mortal being, it was a literal transformation and transfiguration, a shift in not merely identity but being as well, because the two aspects of existence are one for a Titan. Who you are is what you are made of, and to change the one is to alter the other. The soul of a Titan shapes its flesh.

Now, consider the mogu again. We're told that they were changed and shaped by the waters of the vale, just as the Well of Eternity itself changed and shaped other species and life itself. Why would it do that? How does it do that? Because that is what a Titan is. The Titans are seen by us as creatures of Order because they seem driven to shape and mold, but what if that's a necessity for them? Imagine a being whose very physical substance changes as their thoughts do, wouldn't they by necessity have to find a way to maintain a baseline, to preserve a coherent identity? The Titans impose order upon the chaos of existence externally as a means to impose it internally, because the Titans are themselves ultimate chaos. The Old Gods? Pretenders. They can't make anything, they merely corrupt and take pleasure in the corruption. They impose chaos, as they did upon Azeroth, because they are stagnant, ultimately leading only to destruction and ultimately, the orderly progression of nothingness.

Thieves who stole divine fire

When considering the mogu, we're struck on the one hand by their constant displays of short sightedness (the pandaren describe them as thugs, and we see them clearly unable to conceive of anyone ever defeating them) and their astonishing magical secrets. Their ability shape flesh and twist souls to animate unliving stone is astonishing. But we're told repeatedly that they also gained great knowledge from places like Mogu'shan Vaults, stealing and building upon Titan secrets. And one of the things that's been haunting me is how the Elegon chamber reminds me of several places I've seen before, such as the chamber just past the Assembly of Iron, or even more the Tribunal of Ages. We know that each complex seems to have been built with a specific purpose in mind - Uldaman as a data storage facility keeping the location of the Discs of Norgannon and pointing towards Uldum, Ulduar as a complex meant to monitor the progression of Azeroth, Uldum itself as the home to the means to Re-Originate the world should its development be imperiled - so what purpose do the Titan facilities in Pandaria serve? What were they for? Why are they there? What purpose did the Forge of the Endless originally fulfill? We're told the mogu repurposed the facility, so what was it originally intended to do? We know from Ulduar that there were similar forges that created iron vrykul and dwarves... did the mogu alter such a creation engine to make more of themselves, and what does that say about them?

And all of this makes me wonder about the Divine Bell, 'cast from the flesh of the Makers" - so let us suppose for a moment that the postulation is true, that a Titan died and its 'blood' is the Well of Eternity, the waters of the Vale. What does it mean to kill a Titan, whose body changes to match its mind? I postulate to you that the Titans are enfleshed thought. They are concepts incarnated in matter. Look at how Sargeras twisted and warped as his thoughts did. The Titans seek to promote order throughout the cosmos to tame the writhing incoherent chaos of their own natures - they themselves are pure chaos, pure power given form. They deform reality wherever they go because they have no choice, and shape worlds to be orderly as a defense against their own chaos seeking to render them spiritually amorphous. They take on obsessions and become these obsessions - Eonar embodies life and its preservation, Norgannon becomes a keeper of secrets and magic, Aman'thul time itself - because these are limits they impose upon themselves. They need limits, because without them, there would be no definition, they would be everything and if you're everything at once you're effectively nothing at all. We've seen repeatedly in the Warcraft universe the concept of opposites providing each other with such definition - the naaru life cycle, as an example. Without boundaries, the Titans become what?

To mold that which molded you

Well, if we're right, then the dead Titan shows us. In order to kill a Titan, a being whose form changes and shifts with her or his belief, then you first have to convince it that it is dead. Once it dies, it releases that hold it maintain on itself, that series of obsessions and concepts that provided it with a definition, a limitation to believe itself to be. In death, the Titan goes from embodied concept to disembodied potential - it can be anything, because it no longer is specifically anything. Thus the rush of raw, wild, chaotic energy untainted by good or evil, fel or arcane - the Well simply is. But what happens to the body when the spirit is released?

Azeroth as it exists today exists after the battle between the Old Gods and the Titans that slew an Old God, and seems to have slain a Titan as well. If we accept that the Well was the manifestation of the 'blood' of the Titan, its pure potential power leading forth like blood from a wound, then what of its body? The body of a Titan reflects what it believes itself to be. If the Titan believes itself to be dead, then the body would no longer have belief to direct its transformation. Yet it would still be that body, still be composed of material that was shapeable, directable by sufficient essential energy. Imagine, therefore, that the purpose of the installations was to house that body, and the mogu stumbled upon it. What secrets could it teach them? This would be a flesh that once contained a soul unlike anything ever seen. Even if imperfectly understood, even if much of the data from the discs was corrupted, and even if it was misapplied by the grasping hands of those with more arrogance than sense, this alone could have catapulted them to power.

From what source comes the clay that shapes the terracotta warriors? Our own flesh is often called clay, or dust - can so be said of the flesh of a maker? Did the mogu trade their mortal flesh for that of a fallen Titan, carve new homes for their soulds from the bones of a being whose body changes to reflect what it houses? And for that matter, do we know what Azeroth itself is made of? The Titans are often depicted as metallic, and the Titans are often divided into entities of storm and entities of fire, beings of the natural forces that shape our world. Did the death of a Titan unleash the beginning of Azeroth's current existence? Did it reshape the world? Did it Re-Originate the world? Is the world itself made of the flesh of a Maker?

In the end, we don't know. We know only that the mogu, despite their flaws, somehow learned secrets that allowed them to do what no other race on Azeroth can, to bind the souls of their own people and others into stone and make it live. And they learned this secret from ancient Titan ruins. And during the reign of the Thunder King, they shaped the flesh of a Maker, or so they claimed. The rest is conjecture.

I think the old God that died didn't exacly die but more of split into 7 Sha, and at some point the Sha will reform.

BTW notice the Sha of anger says "you will not bury me again"

I mean, he does spawn out of the dirt...

Also I think that as the sha are feed by anger, doubt, hate, Despair, Violence, Fear, and such negative emotions that as the war grows and those emotions grow the Sha will get stronger till they manage to reform into the old god.

And maybe the Titan will some how come back.

Ok our new leader the Sha of Happiness is like the red headed step child of the sha family. (lets call him #8)

On ESPN 8 "The Ocho" right?

Immer there's another "know your lore TFHE" about the sha

they speculate the 7th might be the sha of shame.

said by Know Your Lore: The Sha :

---

There's the Sha of Anger in Kun-Lai, the Sha of Despair that haunts the temple of Chi-Ji. There's the Sha of Doubt that wreaked havoc in the Jade Forest, and the Sha of Violence in Shado-Pan Monastary. And then we have the Sha of Hatred in the Townlong Steppes, and of course the Sha of Fear that we will eventually see in the Terrace of Endless Spring, the Sha that haunted the Grand Empress of the mantid.

That would be six Sha. We're missing one. Where is it, and what does it represent? What negative emotion are we missing? The one that immediately springs to mind is guilt or shame -- something that we as Alliance and Horde are experiencing in small doses right now. But that doesn't seem to be enough to invoke a Sha, does it? I guess we'd really have to mess up huge for a Sha of Shame to show up. I mean, it'd probably take entire armies of Alliance and Horde ripping the continent apart in their haze of hatred and violence.

Oh wait, aren't those forces arriving in a future patch?

---

I'm really enjoying reading those "know your lore" articles again. Cool stuff.

Got my new Pandaren Monk through the starter quests. Interesting how "equally" they presented the choice of Alliance or Horde... really put a shine on the "nobility" of the Horde. Only those of us who have seen Thrall be replaced by Garrosh would know better.

Regardless of Garrosh (and the whole demon blood thing) the Orcs have the highest honor standards in the whole lore.

See Broxigar.

that's one orc. I'd entertain a vote for the tauren or trolls over the orcs.

Here's another good one

»wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/ ··· ndering/

might whitepeddle lake really be the well of eternity?

and might that mean that when doing dailies we're some days swimming in titan blood?

Thrall, Durotan his father, Ogrim Doomhammer even Grom Hellscream were highly honorable Orcs.

. The whole demon blood and Guldan messed things up

It did... and that's the point. You can't maintain that the Orcs are an honorable race right now... just because they were during the war of the Ancients. Thrall became great, but had to re-connect with his ancestry... and had to renounce the Warchief in order to do so. Broxigar was a great warrior, and the embodiment of honor. But that's it. The Orcs of today... have sullied themselves for empty glory and vein conquest. Even Saurfang was a good leader. They are a mess right now. I respect Eitregg... but he stands set-apart from the orcs. Those who resist in secret are put to death by the Kor'kron. What honor and glory they once had was stamped out when Garrosh decided to get in league with Blackrock orcs.

Thrall brought honor back to the Orcs... Garrosh is trading that Honor for what he considers to be Glory.

And Garrosh stole from the blue dragons to attack the only one that wanted peace so badly that she risked everything, and lost everything.

Personally I hope Jaina shows up at some point and plays an important role in MoP.

You mean Garrosh, he is dragging the Orcs as a race and the whole Horde to what you say. That doesn't mean that the Orcs have no nobility.

Orcs must die!!!! oh wait, wrong game. carry on.

This is what I'm currently arguing against. Thanks to Garrosh, the Blackrocks, and all those who cheer Garrosh... this statement cannot be made of the orcs of today. Like I said... if we were talking about Tauren or Trolls, I'd entertain that notion more readily.

The Orcs had great ancestors... they need great contemporaries to rise up.

On that I can agree for sure.