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telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to fifty nine

Re: Convert from gasoline to tri-fuel

said by fifty nine:

I had no idea they sold dyed, untaxed gasoline. I thought they only did that with diesel.

Around here they sell off road diesel which doesn't have the road tax and it's about 50 cents less than regular on-road diesel. OF course it has the red dye so if you use it in your truck, the cops pull you over and dip your tank... thousands in fines.

its like that up here too, they have colored unleaded at the co-op that can also be delivered to farms.


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
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·voip.ms
reply to itguy05
First of all, I never said storing gasoline is dangerous. Although it can be. It's inconvenient if you don't have a way to cycle it through (most people have cars or lawn mowers).
Storing propane isn't nearly as dangerous as what people here are making it out to be. I'd be far more comfortable storing propane vs. gasoline though. Propane tanks are pretty well built. Just follow the rules.

If you'll re-read my post, I was simply saying having OPTIONS is the benefit of tri-fuel. I wasn't picking any winners.

There are people on this site, and in this particular forum, who will twist my words to try and post anything they can to appear counter to me. I swear to god, if I were to put up a one word post that said "Black", withing minutes there would be a 5 paragraph dissertation screaming "white" and extolling the negative virtues of the word black.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
said by nunya:

If you'll re-read my post, I was simply saying having OPTIONS is the benefit of tri-fuel. I wasn't picking any winners.

True enough, it's about having OPTIONS, each person can pick the best choice for themselves. I'm likely going to buy a tri-fuel kit for my portable generator just because I'd like to have the flexibility.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to telco_mtl
said by telco_mtl:

said by fifty nine:

I had no idea they sold dyed, untaxed gasoline. I thought they only did that with diesel.

Around here they sell off road diesel which doesn't have the road tax and it's about 50 cents less than regular on-road diesel. OF course it has the red dye so if you use it in your truck, the cops pull you over and dip your tank... thousands in fines.

its like that up here too, they have colored unleaded at the co-op that can also be delivered to farms.

Are you in Canada?


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

First of all, I never said storing gasoline is dangerous. Although it can be. It's inconvenient if you don't have a way to cycle it through (most people have cars or lawn mowers).
Storing propane isn't nearly as dangerous as what people here are making it out to be. I'd be far more comfortable storing propane vs. gasoline though. Propane tanks are pretty well built. Just follow the rules.

If you'll re-read my post, I was simply saying having OPTIONS is the benefit of tri-fuel. I wasn't picking any winners.

There are people on this site, and in this particular forum, who will twist my words to try and post anything they can to appear counter to me. I swear to god, if I were to put up a one word post that said "Black", withing minutes there would be a 5 paragraph dissertation screaming "white" and extolling the negative virtues of the word black.

Well, I'll agree with your position on this one nunya. As I said before, my only concern would be vapor lock on a smaller tank, but barring that, propane makes a lot of sense for this application.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to robbin
said by robbin:

said by alkizmo:

said by SwedishRider:

Your NG setup would be similar to my propane setup, and trust me... it'll be awesome to have virtually limitless fuel right on site when you need it.

meh I wish I could do it too. Then again, so far I don't see the NG line upgrade cost amortize itself vs. price of fuel anytime soon

I'm curious -- how do you quantify this? If you look at what happened after Sandy, the actual cost of fuel after a disaster appears to be the smallest part of the equation.

this this this this this this this
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to SwedishRider
said by SwedishRider:

said by alkizmo:

said by SwedishRider:

Your NG setup would be similar to my propane setup, and trust me... it'll be awesome to have virtually limitless fuel right on site when you need it.

meh I wish I could do it too. Then again, so far I don't see the NG line upgrade cost amortize itself vs. price of fuel anytime soon

This is a situation where return on investment can't be measured purely in monetary value. You may not realize that return in lower fuel costs.... but ask those folks down in NY and Jersey about cost and they'd tell you they don't care about price per gallon of gasoline, they can't buy any gallons of it to save their souls and keep warm in these freezing temperatures. Their generator setups are worthless without fuel to run them. Nobody could have predicted that their setups would not yield the intended result, but in their case... it happened. How many of them would have gladly spent the money for a NG or propane hookup if available to them to do so... my guess is quite a few. And this could go on for weeks more for them..

Sometimes you spend money knowing you may never get a monetary return on it, but use trumps return... and IMHO, this is one of those cases. I'd rather have my propane setup over a pure gasoline setup when the you-know-what hits the fan.

you nedd a bcak up to the back up and a backup to the backup backup.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

If you'll re-read my post, I was simply saying having OPTIONS is the benefit of tri-fuel. I wasn't picking any winners.

precisely
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to nunya
Nunya,

I wasn't trying to twist your words or anything like that.

I was simply pointing out that everyone points to propane as this miracle fuel that will store forever (it will) and will be very easy to find in an emergency situation.

I was relaying experiences from "Ground Zero" in Sandy where propane was just as hard to get as gasoline. Given that fewer places sell propane vs gasoline it may be harder to get due to limited supplies.

I think neither fuel is better than the other - you'll have everyone and their brother looking for gasoline for their cars and generators. You'll have everyone and their brother looking for propane for their barbecues and other gas appliances so shortages may be the norm.

One thing I've learned in life is - no matter how brilliant the idea, you're not the first to have it....


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

I had no idea they sold dyed, untaxed gasoline. I thought they only did that with diesel.

Around here they sell off road diesel which doesn't have the road tax and it's about 50 cents less than regular on-road diesel. OF course it has the red dye so if you use it in your truck, the cops pull you over and dip your tank... thousands in fines.

Pull you over and "Dip" your tank? Wow the cops in NJ must have a lot of excess time on their hands to be able to pull over civilian diesel powered vehicles and check the fuel.

Gas at a marinas is not taxed here and if you buy taxed fuel for your boat just keep the receipts for a tax refund.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to rjgogo
said by rjgogo:

said by cdru:

said by rjgogo:

I must be way below national average as I just paid about a dollar less than what you are quoting for propane.

Taken from the EIA website for Propane prices. That's residential price. Wholesale is $1/gallon. It's probably going to depend a lot on where you're at, how much you are buying, pricing contracts, etc. Even at a dollar less natural gas is still cheaper per equivalent unit of energy.

I just paid 1.38 delivered to my 500 gallon tank in IL. So that is a residential price. I don't have access to NG.

Called my supplier today. Price for 100 gal tank is $3.28/gal, alternate supplier Americagas $3.21/gal.

The last I heard those with 500 gal tanks were paying over $2/gal.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to AVD
So I heard you like backups.
So I put a backup house in your house's backup generator's backup generator.

bn1221

join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY
reply to ITICharlie1
Where do you like that petrol is 2.85 / gallon?

The *ethanol that they sell in the midwest is a lot lower power producing that standard E10 IIRC


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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reply to itguy05
Sorry, the last half of that post was not directed at you.

Jack, I've had the police check my fuel tank several times in Southern Illinois (farm country). If you refuse inspection, it's a $1,000 fine. If you get caught, it's a $1,000 fine the first time, as a misdemeanor tax evasion charge. Second time is a $5,000 fine and moves up to felony.
I've always had dyed fuel available, but never fell to the temptation.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by nunya:

Sorry, the last half of that post was not directed at you.

Jack, I've had the police check my fuel tank several times in Southern Illinois (farm country). If you refuse inspection, it's a $1,000 fine. If you get caught, it's a $1,000 fine the first time, as a misdemeanor tax evasion charge. Second time is a $5,000 fine and moves up to felony.
I've always had dyed fuel available, but never fell to the temptation.

I have never heard of that here in Virginia and I live in farm country and commercial fishing country. Our major infraction is the number of "Farm Vehicle" & "Waterman" wooden signs on vehicles you see everywhere. No body checks this abuse either.
I've never used it in my vehicles either but my next door neighbor who is/was in the landscaping business has his Diesel and Gasoline tanks.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
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·AT&T Midwest
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reply to ITICharlie1
Does anybody makes a rig that will run on diesel, NG, and propane?

There are thousands of boilers out there that easily switch between fuel oil and NG, but I think most of those simply have separate burners in the same firebox. Not quite the same as a piston internal combustion engine.

Diesel seems pretty much unassailable, with more reliable long-term storage and lower volatility than gasoline, no worries about NG utility shutoffs, and less hazard than propane as well. But it's still more expensive than NG.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
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Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to itguy05
said by itguy05:

I was relaying experiences from "Ground Zero" in Sandy where propane was just as hard to get as gasoline. Given that fewer places sell propane vs gasoline it may be harder to get due to limited supplies.

And even if you don't need electricity to dispense propane, if the propane station doesn't have electricity, the workers won't be there and the place will be closed.

nunya, my other response was to make sure someone doesn't get the not-very-bright idea to stock up on propane and store the tanks in the basement.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by fifty nine:

I had no idea they sold dyed, untaxed gasoline. I thought they only did that with diesel.

Around here they sell off road diesel which doesn't have the road tax and it's about 50 cents less than regular on-road diesel. OF course it has the red dye so if you use it in your truck, the cops pull you over and dip your tank... thousands in fines.

Pull you over and "Dip" your tank? Wow the cops in NJ must have a lot of excess time on their hands to be able to pull over civilian diesel powered vehicles and check the fuel.

Gas at a marinas is not taxed here and if you buy taxed fuel for your boat just keep the receipts for a tax refund.

It's not NJ. I've mostly heard this from people in the Midwest. I don't have a diesel vehicle.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by fifty nine:

I had no idea they sold dyed, untaxed gasoline. I thought they only did that with diesel.

Around here they sell off road diesel which doesn't have the road tax and it's about 50 cents less than regular on-road diesel. OF course it has the red dye so if you use it in your truck, the cops pull you over and dip your tank... thousands in fines.

Pull you over and "Dip" your tank? Wow the cops in NJ must have a lot of excess time on their hands to be able to pull over civilian diesel powered vehicles and check the fuel.

Gas at a marinas is not taxed here and if you buy taxed fuel for your boat just keep the receipts for a tax refund.

It's not NJ. I've mostly heard this from people in the Midwest. I don't have a diesel vehicle.

You didn't specify that you weren't referring to NJ. Anyway I've never heard of the cops "dipping" a tank for illegal fuel here.
Expand your moderator at work

nyrrule27

join:2007-12-06
Howell, NJ
reply to ITICharlie1

Re: Convert from gasoline to tri-fuel

running my renerator 15 hrs on gas with min load (fridge, tv and blue ray, fish tank and 100 heat lamp for snake) lasted me about 15 hrs. if i had to guess it was prob less then 2000 watts on a 5000 watt generator. what kind of "gas mileage" would propane get

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

1 recommendation

said by nyrrule27:

running my renerator 15 hrs on gas... lasted me about 15 hrs.

Good to know that 15 hrs lasted 15 hrs. I'd hate if you went through a time warp and 15 hrs only lasted 14 hrs.

nyrrule27

join:2007-12-06
Howell, NJ
haha..sorry working for vz and 12 hr days for over a week has my brain fried. 5 gallons of gas lasted aprox 15 hrs

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
I figured it was something like that.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

You didn't specify that you weren't referring to NJ. Anyway I've never heard of the cops "dipping" a tank for illegal fuel here.

Then as usual you're the exception rather than the rule.

They do dip and they do check, and they do fine people. Otherwise people would just use red dyed diesel in their vehicles.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1

2 edits
in 69 years I've never seen or heard of it here in VA. Now if it were happening it would be common knowledge wouldn't it? Heck with the budget cuts we have little checking on our pump accuracy much less what someone is running in their tanks.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Gas at a marinas is not taxed here and if you buy taxed fuel for your boat just keep the receipts for a tax refund.

marina gas up here isnt taxed either but the marinas get you big time because you are captive so they charge more than retail gas stations


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

in 69 years I've never seen or heard of it here in VA. Now if it were happening it would be common knowledge wouldn't it? Heck with the budget cuts we have little checking on our pump accuracy much less what someone is running in their tanks.

I could also say that police don't check for speeding because I've never gotten a speeding ticket.

Dipping happens more at truck scales and more with commercial trucks. Some places can also determine if you were using red dyed diesel from examining your exhaust.

Now you tell me, why would they go through all the trouble of dyeing the diesel if they didn't at least enforce it sometimes?

Virginia seems to check:

»www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citiz···esel.asp


ITICharlie1
Premium
join:2003-01-22
St. Louis MO
I worked out a deal with a plumber friend who will install the piping for $100.00 if I buy the stuff. I'm looking at about 20 to 25' of 1" pipe, two 90' elbows, one T fitting, and two valves. He has the tap and threading machine. We can T right above the meter in the basement, run about 8' to the corner, make the turn along the other wall about 12', then turn outside. This will place the gas outlet out of the way and close to my garage were I store and run the generator. So far most of the places that sell the conversion kits are back ordered. I guess from the storms and lack of gasoline, a lot of people are doing the same thing.
--
Don't let my reality hinder your imagination!


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1
Get full bore 1" ball valves, not the tapered-core gas cocks. Too much pressure drop in those.