Topic 'Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA' in forum 'Home Improvement' - dslreports.com

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:20:23 EDT

alkizmo posted :

It is best to do it like Jack_in_VA said but sometimes there is no power near the first split in the antenna cables. That is especially likely if you are using a splitter/combiner on the roof to combine the signal from the two antennas (to bring only one coax into the house).

Well, the cable would go from the antenna to a space under my basement stairs where my network cables and coax cables meet. So the split would be there, and I can put the power injector JUST before the splitter. (well, between the antenna and the splitter, whichever means before or after).

The second antenna would also go directly to that location, as both antennas would be a good 40 feet away from each others and that space under the stairs is between them.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:14:53 EDT

leibold posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

If you use a CM-7777 the preamp goes right at the antnenna and the power supply in the house. You need to put your splitter after the power supply as the coax is the circuit to power the preamp.

You could use a splitter with "DC pass through" if you have to split the cable prior to the power injector but then you have to pay attention how you connect it (the DC pass through is only one of the splitter outputs).

It is best to do it like Jack_in_VA said but sometimes there is no power near the first split in the antenna cables. That is especially likely if you are using a splitter/combiner on the roof to combine the signal from the two antennas (to bring only one coax into the house).
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Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:02:55 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by leibold:

Pre-amp inside the antenna (some antennas are designed for that) is best, followed by pre-amp near the antenna. You want to boost the received signal before subjecting it to the losses in the wiring.

A preamp in the antenna and a preamp near the antenna seems like a bit much.

Im thinking of getting the CM7778 (or 7777). If i place it within 10-20 feet of the antenna, then run 40 feet to my splitter, would that be okay?

If you use a CM-7777 the preamp goes right at the antnenna and the power supply in the house. You need to put your splitter after the power supply as the coax is the circuit to power the preamp. I have a 7777 and it works great.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:55:46 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by telco_mtl:

pounds and feet when we are measureing around the house

I don't measure my house in pounds! WTF

but ya.. it's weird.

We learned metric for distances, but I gotta buy my hardware in feet/inches.

But I'm glad I don't buy 304.8cm tubes of PVC, or 121.92cm x 243.84cm plywood boards.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:49:49 EDT

telco_mtl posted :

said by Bob:

You could put a 10' mast on the garage.

EDIT: Aren't you guys metric? Why you talkin in feet?

its funny in canadia, we use litres and KMs when driving, pounds and feet when we are measureing around the house

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:31:42 EDT

Bob posted : No, he's saying first choice is an amp in the antenna. Second choice is an amp near the antenna. You wouldn't do both.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:22:54 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by leibold:

Pre-amp inside the antenna (some antennas are designed for that) is best, followed by pre-amp near the antenna. You want to boost the received signal before subjecting it to the losses in the wiring.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:15:10 EDT

TheTechGuru posted :

said by fartness:

What do the cable companies use? Example, in Utica, NY, they have CKWS from Kingston, ON, which is about 100 air miles away. I asked awhile ago what they used, but I didn't understand the technical details of the antenna then.

Most of them use antenna towers, some use fiber links to local stations, and a few use satellite.

I once had a cable co that used DishNetwork to get a few local channels. I knew because during a storm it lost signal and said searching for signal with the dishnetwork logo on it.
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Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:01:35 EDT

leibold posted :

said by alkizmo:

But what is best? preamp near the antenna or near the TV/Splitter?

Pre-amp inside the antenna (some antennas are designed for that) is best, followed by pre-amp near the antenna. You want to boost the received signal before subjecting it to the losses in the wiring.

I'm lucky enough to get a 73 mile distant station without the need for a pre-amp (LOS, directional antenna).
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Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:55:39 EDT

fartness posted : What do the cable companies use? Example, in Utica, NY, they have CKWS from Kingston, ON, which is about 100 air miles away. I asked awhile ago what they used, but I didn't understand the technical details of the antenna then.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:52:21 EDT

leibold posted :

said by alkizmo:

I do remember NASA losing a Mars probe because someone didn't read measurements as metric.

NASA read them as metric alright (and that is what they were supposed to be). Too bad Lockhead Martin incorrectly specified the force of the thrusters using imperial measurements. Oops :o
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Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:48:00 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by leibold:

That would not be an issue. The pre-amp is powered through the coax cable with a power injector inside the house.

Ah.
But what is best? preamp near the antenna or near the TV/Splitter?
edit - Not thinking of putting it in the tree, but I gotta know for when I do setup my ... setup.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:45:10 EDT

leibold posted :

said by alkizmo:

Then I'd need a preamp near the antenna to compensate for the 100 feet of RG6... so that preamp would need power, in the tree!

That would not be an issue. The pre-amp is powered through the coax cable with a power injector inside the house.

While putting the antenna at the top of a tall tree is an attractive idea from the height perspective it is not very practical for the other reasons given (especially motion of the tree in windy weather).
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Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:29:42 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by fifty nine:

We do. We have NASA and stuff here that you don't have there, remember? :)

I do remember NASA losing a Mars probe because someone didn't read measurements as metric.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:25:48 EDT

fifty nine posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by Bob:

You could put a 10' mast on the garage.

Only if 20-25 feet isn't enough.

said by Bob:

EDIT: Aren't you guys metric? Why you talkin in feet?

Because I know both, but you guys don't ;)

We do. We have NASA and stuff here that you don't have there, remember? :)

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:19:18 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by Bob:

You could put a 10' mast on the garage.

Only if 20-25 feet isn't enough.

said by Bob:

EDIT: Aren't you guys metric? Why you talkin in feet?

Because I know both, but you guys don't ;)

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:13:35 EDT

Bob posted : You could put a 10' mast on the garage.

EDIT: Aren't you guys metric? Why you talkin in feet?

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 10:16:31 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by Pher9999:

Silly idea, could you put the antenna on the tree?

AFAIK those antennas don't like to move.
The top of the tree would move a lot (it actually splits into 4 trunks, so no central trunk.

Then I'd need a preamp near the antenna to compensate for the 100 feet of RG6... so that preamp would need power, in the tree!

The garage thing isn't so bad. It's not like I had much chance to catch both sets of channels anyway if the tree wasn't in the way. There are about 5 trees directly in the way of the local stations, so I'd need to have the best orientation possible, yet not sacrifice the orientation for the US channels.

I measured the heights yesterday. My chimney is actually 40 feet high while the garage's roof's peak is 20-25 feet high, so the garage isn't so low.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 10:11:46 EDT

Pher9999 posted : Silly idea, could you put the antenna on the tree?

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 10:06:37 EDT

alkizmo posted : Don't worry. I'm not going to try to cut that tree myself.

It's a 40 years old maple tree that is over 50 feet high.

I'd rather just... put the antenna on the garage.

Probably gonna go for the winegard 91XG, it won't show as much as the large rectangle that is the CM4228HD.
I'll catch the local stations with another antenna on my chimney, it will have no choice but to go through trees for that one, so better just go full directional.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:56:35 EDT

Bob posted : Don't be this guy - »Learning the hard way that safety should always comes first

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:24:51 EDT

telco_mtl posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by Bob:

Solution:

Spend 1000$ on tree removal services
Or buy a second antenna....

Destruction IS appealing.

go to loutec and get that cool chainsaw on a pole, 25$ a day and believe me i never had more of a fun time fixing my TV reception!

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:58:51 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by Bob:

Solution:

Spend 1000$ on tree removal services
Or buy a second antenna....

Destruction IS appealing.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:59:31 EDT

Bob posted : Solution:

[att=1]

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:45:39 EDT

alkizmo posted : Ok so I'm definitively going to need two antennas.
From reading on the internet: Tree is a no-no, I gotta avoid it.

To avoid it, I gotta place it over my garage that's lower than the rest of the house.

The rest of the house (upon rechecking the azimuth) is going to COMPLETELY block the local channels LOS.

So I can go for a directional antenna for the far away stations, but still getting conflicting info on whether yagi > panels for long distance.

BTW if I lower my antenna's height to 15 feet, I lose the LOS from tvfool, so I really don't have a lot of wiggle room.

For the local channels, an attic cheapie will do.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:48:51 EDT

fifty nine posted :

said by alkizmo:

Most of what is green on the report? or most of the report TOTAL? If total, that's insane! Too bad for me that even if I can accomplish that, it's all the same channels, repeated.

Most of the report, total.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 06:58:13 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by Bob:

EDIT: This appears to be a mathematical analysis, not actual measurements.

Hmm it looks like I could get channels at 50 degrees off center, but I wouldn't get a dB gain. However I'd get 32 to 57 dB from the start.

Again my problem is that if I want to avoid the tree for the distant stations, I need to place the antenna on the garage, which its roof is lower than the rest of the house. The local channels would be blocked by the rest of the house.... unless I place the antenna as far to the back of my house, where maybe I'd get an edge of clearance.

I think I'll go for the CM4228HD, and try to see if I can get both sets of channels. If i can't, I'll get a second cheaper antenna.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 06:36:33 EDT

Bob posted : »imageevent.com/holl_ands/multiba···enguin_s

EDIT: This appears to be a mathematical analysis, not actual measurements.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 06:28:45 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by Bob:

You may be able to get it through a sidelobe. Check the antenna pattern.

Yeah people have been saying that often, but I don't see something like antenna pattern in the specs for the CM4228HD

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 06:26:32 EDT

Bob posted :

said by alkizmo:

I already need a second VHF/UHF antenna to pick up the local stations at 91 degrees.

Not necessarily. You may be able to get it through a sidelobe. Check the antenna pattern.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 06:16:05 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by fifty nine:

The Antennas Direct 91XG will do good as well but yagi-corner reflector antennas tend to favor the higher channels more.

Also you have one station (channel 13 real, 22.1 virt) on VHF so you need a VHF antenna. The CM4228 may work but I would recommend a Winegard YA1713 yagi. You'd need a combiner as well such as the UVSJ by pico macom.

Solidsignal.com is my goto place for antenna supplies.

Well that ONE channel isn't going to make me buy a dedicated VHF antenna. I already need a second VHF/UHF antenna to pick up the local stations at 91 degrees.

However if you do say the CM4228 would work nicely to get the channels 85 miles away (143 degrees), then maybe it can pick up ABC. If it doesn't, no big deal.

Think there's a way to use the CM4228 to catch the local channels AND the US channels? They are 52 degrees apart.

said by fifty nine:

If aimed properly I can get most of what is on the report.

Most of what is green on the report? or most of the report TOTAL? If total, that's insane! Too bad for me that even if I can accomplish that, it's all the same channels, repeated.

However I guess I do have reason to make an effort for the local channels. I didn't notice the option for seeing "pending applications" for channels. When I clicked it, a LOT more channels appeared. It's mostly french though :(

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 23:23:26 EDT

fifty nine posted : Look at what I have to deal with:

Antenna on tower:

»www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapp···9ae59984

Antenna at roof height:

»www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapp···38a539b7

If aimed properly I can get most of what is on the report.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 23:20:13 EDT

fifty nine posted :

said by alkizmo:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc499f076ecc4a

The target stations are the ones in yellow @ 143 degrees.
The other ones above at 91 degrees are very local, so no issues with a smaller antenna.

Tree removal isn't really something I'd do just to get free OTA. I'm not that desperate to get OTA (I was willing to just give up)

That actually isn't bad. You should be able to get that with a good rooftop antenna and a preamp.

I would recommend the 4 bay bowties. Channel Master and Winegard makes some good ones. I have the old style channel master 4228 as I mentioned.

The Antennas Direct 91XG will do good as well but yagi-corner reflector antennas tend to favor the higher channels more.

Also you have one station (channel 13 real, 22.1 virt) on VHF so you need a VHF antenna. The CM4228 may work but I would recommend a Winegard YA1713 yagi. You'd need a combiner as well such as the UVSJ by pico macom.

Solidsignal.com is my goto place for antenna supplies.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 23:16:51 EDT

fifty nine posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

Here's a great pre-amp although it may be a little pricy.

Research Communications LTD, RF Amps

I have one.

However, it is sensitive to lightning. Mine was fried in a nearby lightning strike and it cost $30 to fix including postage.

Kitztech.com also makes good amps. A friend of mine (lives in your area Jack) has one.

The low noise preamp is phenomenal. It pulls stuff out of the air you didn't even know was there. Of course you must have some signal to work with but it is much better than channel master, winegard or any of the other consumer amps.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:51:51 EDT

resare posted : its like our "Addison" on the South Shore ;)

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:03:30 EDT

telco_mtl posted :

said by JFinMtl :

live in Longueuil, and with this antenna

»www.master-vox.com/index_en.html···AB8BBE8D

on my 25' roof, I get ~20 channels.

OK, I added a simple signal amplifier (dont know if it really helps).

Ur looking for PBS, CBS, NBC & FOX ?

The antenna can point in 2 directions.

Mine is oriented one side to Mtl (for local TV), and other side towards Adirondaks (for the US TV)

200$ invested (antenna + wiring)...well worth it, coz no cable monthly fee :)))

ive been meaning to check out that store, drive by it often

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:02:03 EDT

telco_mtl posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by fartness:

Buy both and return one?

One of them is from a store with no return unless defective (exchange only) policy.

Also I'd rather not be playing on my roof switching back and forth between two antennas :P
AND, the tree doesn't have leaves anymore at this time of the year, so I wouldn't be able to test how they behave differently in summer time.

you bought from that store near the bar b barn eh:P

over here on the south shore im able to get WPTZ, WCAX, WETK, WFFF and WVNY if i point my rotor at mount mansfield, I never looked on a map where the transmitters are but i can get WCFE when i point at the adirondacks, i think they are still at tupper lake, also on a clear day i can sometimes get WMTW if i play with the rotor

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:54:57 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted : [att=1]

That's an impressive antenna and a good price. I paid that much for my CM-4228 although it was several years ago.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:54:45 EDT

TwiztedZero posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

http://www.avsforum.com/f/?s=

85 miles is a stretch. I'm doing 47 mostly over water with a Channel Master 4228 and Channel Master Amp.

I agree, not only do you have to battle line of sight (LOS), but also tropospheric propagation, as well as the curvature of the earth. The higher your antenna the better the reach but again the earth's curve is going to be a PITA.
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Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:47:56 EDT

anon posted : live in Longueuil, and with this antenna

»www.master-vox.com/index_en.html···AB8BBE8D

on my 25' roof, I get ~20 channels.

OK, I added a simple signal amplifier (dont know if it really helps).

Ur looking for PBS, CBS, NBC & FOX ?

The antenna can point in 2 directions.

Mine is oriented one side to Mtl (for local TV), and other side towards Adirondaks (for the US TV)

200$ invested (antenna + wiring)...well worth it, coz no cable monthly fee :)))

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:40:43 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by Bob:

Check the antenna pattern. You might be able to get the nearby stations through a sidelobe.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:20:26 EDT

Bob posted : Check the antenna pattern. You might be able to get the nearby stations through a sidelobe.

And that mountain is in the Green Mountains, not the Adirondacks. (Although there are TV transmitters on Whiteface Mountain [4865 feet] in the Adirondacks. They're frequently listed as being in North Pole, NY.)

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:52:01 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by leibold:

While I don't advocate cutting down the tree I do agree on avoiding the tree in the straight line between antenna and transmitter. Consider a different location for the antenna mast or using a taller one.

To go above the tree,　I'd have to go a good 70 feet up.

HOWEVER, if I move the antenna away from the originally planned location, and put it over my garage, I could avoid the tree from the LOS. I'd go down to 10-15 feet elevation, but I guess losing 15 feet is better than having a tree in the way.

Jack_in_VA, that amp.... too TOO expensive, woah :p

Not only that it comes from the UK and the exchange rate impacts it. :(

In my CB years one of the station engineers was a friend of ours put a CB antenna (Big Stick) 900 ft up their 1140 ft tower. 900 ft because we bought a 1000 ft reel of coax and needed 100 ft to get from the tower to transmitter bldg. As the old CBers used to say we could "Blow Smoke".

That said sometimes height is not the answer to good reception. In the early days of TV one of my neighbors worked for an appliance store (Wards TV) single store parent of Circuit City. He had an antenna mounted on a trailer with a crank-up tower. He would come to the home and crank the antenna up and down until the "sweet" spot was found. That's the height he would install the antenna.

At first we only had one station that carried all three networks then 3 stations that were not close together. They sold a "Richmond" special which consisted of 3 separate antennas for those who didn't want to invest in a rotator. One for channel 6, Channel 8 and channel 12. Each was mounted on a single mast with proper vertical spacing and aimed at the correct tower.

Here even with Directv they did not broadcast our locals in HD so the only way was to put up an antenna. For several years we experimented with the help of the station engineer from a LINTV station. It was very interesting and a lot of us including the stations learned a lot. Even now the PQ with the Antenna is a little better than that on Directv but I think my DVR is screwing up my main tv because my tv in the bedroom has much better PQ.

I look at 47 miles to the Hampton Roads stations and the Richmond stations are about 65 miles. Can only get Richmond with the leaves off the trees.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:42:51 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by ke4pym:

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by ke4pym:

@Jack - Water and land have very different signal propagation characteristics - the two really can't be compared.

Thanks but I didn't ask for a critique of my statement. I was just clarifying how I am presently using my setup which is only backup as I use Directv for my primary source. I know the performance very well is different land vs water.

The Channel Master CM4228 coupled with the Channel Master RM7777 RF Amp is a great combo. Good quality amps don't overload the tuners so that is a non-issue using a good amp and quality receiver.

Then you really shouldn't have brought the two up as they're irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

An amp's quality, while important, isn't the case here. If it amplifies a strong (read: local) signal too much, you're going to overload the front end of the receiver. While there are amps that have gain control, I don't know of any preamp based systems that offer AGC (that wouldn't compete with the tuner's own AGC circuit).

And just because you may have a quality display, it doesn't always mean its going to have a quality receiver on board. Which, again, if presented with too much signal (IE trying to amplify local signals) will overload. This is true for any receiver. Not just TV.

If the station's xmitter is indeed on a 3000 foot mountain, with say even a small 100' tower, I doubt a 30' tree is going to present much of an issue. Unless, it's like, 100' wide or something.

Did I say I had a quality display with a quality tuner? I don't think so. The quality of my receiver/tuner is irrelevant. I haven't seen receivers overload on strong signals in maybe 40 years. I don't think the OP has to worry about that unless it actually happens to him. If it does it's easy to address.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:34:18 EDT

ke4pym posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by ke4pym:

@Jack - Water and land have very different signal propagation characteristics - the two really can't be compared.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:27:16 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by leibold:

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:09:01 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by resare:

trees DO matter !

I get better signal in the winter months (no leaves in the trees).

Leaves play heck with the UHF signals. Mostly multipath problems.

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:06:30 EDT

resare posted : trees DO matter !

I get better signal in the winter months (no leaves in the trees).

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 17:47:38 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted : Here's a great pre-amp although it may be a little pricy.

Research Communications LTD, RF Amps

Re: Hopeless or possible? HDTV OTA

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 17:01:24 EDT

leibold posted :

said by alkizmo:

TechGuru recommended directionals yagis.
Leibold recommended multi elements.

Based on the specifications the XG91 is the clear winner. I just recommended what I have experience with.

Before purchasing the antenna also check the space requirements which are very different for those two types of antennas.

While I don't advocate cutting down the tree I do agree on avoiding the tree in the straight line between antenna and transmitter. Consider a different location for the antenna mast or using a taller one.
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