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CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

Verizon not going to replace copper damaged by Sandy

It seems that wdoa See Profile was right in asking:
quote:
We all know Verizon wants to ditch their copper plant, might they in some cases use this an excuse to just decide not to fix the landline infrustructure?

From what I am seeing, Verizon has no intention of replacing the copper cables damaged by hurricane Sandy. I have personally been told this by two separate managers and other techs have been told this too. Verizon's 'plan' is to migrate all effected copper customers to FIOS whether they want it or not. I have even heard reports from fellow techs that some customers are not even being informed the work being done is to move them into FIOS. The maintenance crews are still saving what the can but no replacement copper is being hung and the copper repair techs are being told there is no work.

Since the Wednesday after the storm, the company has declared a 'state of emergency' and is forcing the techs to work 12 hr days, 7 days a week. Strangely though, much of the work we are doing has nothing to do with damage from the storm. It makes one wonder if anyone is checking on what they submit to FEMA. FIOS is being repaired and cables replaced where needed... new installs are proceeding like nothing happened. It seems that people are too concerned with electricity and gasoline to think about the phones.

Bottom line is if your POTS line isn't working in another week or so... it probably never will be. Your line will eventually be moved to FIOS... if it is available and when they get to it. You could also cancel your line and just use wireless; your only other option will be the Cable company. Don't know how small businesses are going to feel about that. There will also be T1s effected but I don't know how they are going to handle them.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

1 recommendation

I'm sure they'll roll it into storm expenses!

Probably take a tax write off as well on the "expenses" of "Storm losses" that are actually NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STORM.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
reply to CXM_Splicer
I think this is a good idea. Why keep a damaged and obsolete copper wire infrastructure when you can replace it with something more reliable?
--
USA 2012 - the mooches won.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
There are a couple of reasons:

- Because FIOS is not available everywhere the copper was damaged

- The regulations are different for FIOS and people should not be forced on to it

- It will take much longer to move people into FIOS as opposed to simply fixing the copper

- In all likelihood, FEMA is giving them money to FIX the copper... not ignore it.

For an area that isn't livable right now and must be completely rebuilt I can see Verizon doing this; there is no reason to put copper into a greenfield area. Where there are people living and businesses trying to open this should be illegal.


skreed

@clearwire-wmx.net
reply to KrK
Those assets are still changed into expenses which doesn't nothing to help Verizon's income statement.


rit56

join:2000-12-01
New York, NY
reply to CXM_Splicer
And when the next storm rolls around no service. Copper wired phones have electric backup and people here I know with old landlines still had access to the world.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
reply to CXM_Splicer
said by CXM_Splicer:

- In all likelihood, FEMA is giving them money to FIX the copper... not ignore it.

I think that is insane. Shouldn't Verizon or whoever the local phone company is be expected to have some form of private insurance, or money set aside, to fix these things?

Verizon was a Fortune 10 company the last time I checked. They don't need corporate welfare. If I am expected to save up my own cash or have insurance to cover the costs of catastrophic losses for my stuff, then so should they.

This and every other disaster proves that FEMA is the biggest, saddest joke of a government agency. They literally cannot do anything right, period. Perhaps it IS time to disband it and simply let states and local government have access to these funds so they can do their own disaster preparation instead. Consider how California responds to an earthquake, or how Florida responds to a hurricane. They seem to be far more on top of things than the federal government ever will.
--
USA 2012 - the mooches won.


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
said by pnh102:

said by CXM_Splicer:

- In all likelihood, FEMA is giving them money to FIX the copper... not ignore it.

I think that is insane. Shouldn't Verizon or whoever the local phone company is be expected to have some form of private insurance, or money set aside, to fix these things?

Verizon was a Fortune 10 company the last time I checked. They don't need corporate welfare. If I am expected to save up my own cash or have insurance to cover the costs of catastrophic losses for my stuff, then so should they.

This and every other disaster proves that FEMA is the biggest, saddest joke of a government agency. They literally cannot do anything right, period. Perhaps it IS time to disband it and simply let states and local government have access to these funds so they can do their own disaster preparation instead. Consider how California responds to an earthquake, or how Florida responds to a hurricane. They seem to be far more on top of things than the federal government ever will.

Your attack on FEMA is based on one posters speculation that they're giving money to Verizon. I have found no proof of that anywhere.


meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 recommendation

Anyway... next disaster how would we survive without the Feeble Excuse Making Agency? It's a tough job... but SOMEONE has to do it.

lv66vette

join:2004-07-01
Miami, FL
Go ahead and knock FEMA, until you need it, you will be the first in line.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by lv66vette:

Go ahead and knock FEMA, until you need it, you will be the first in line.

At which point you will be like the poor saps in New Orleans and New York who did not heed the warnings and prepare. Starving and without energy.

We should all simply accept that when (not if) disaster strikes, you will be on your own and no government help will come at all. Plan and prepare accordingly. It is not that hard to do.
--
USA 2012 - the mooches won.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Your attack on FEMA is based on one posters speculation that they're giving money to Verizon. I have found no proof of that anywhere.

This is government we are talking about. It is prudent to assume they are always doing the wrong thing until proven otherwise.
--
USA 2012 - the mooches won.


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
reply to CXM_Splicer
said by CXM_Splicer:

There are a couple of reasons:

- Because FIOS is not available everywhere the copper was damaged

- The regulations are different for FIOS and people should not be forced on to it

- It will take much longer to move people into FIOS as opposed to simply fixing the copper

- In all likelihood, FEMA is giving them money to FIX the copper... not ignore it.

For an area that isn't livable right now and must be completely rebuilt I can see Verizon doing this; there is no reason to put copper into a greenfield area. Where there are people living and businesses trying to open this should be illegal.

This is Old Union Mentality, replace Obsolete Copper for job security. You can't fix Copper you have to replace it, so why not do it with Fiber. Copper is even more expensive these days. So spend the money wisely and put it into Fiber connecting equipment that is not obsolete and going to be taken out soon. Verizon in a crises like this does not worry about where the funds are coming from, they could sort that out later. Like I said before, Verizon main concern is The Customer, but they will work in the fastest, most efficient way possible, and utilize their funds effectively.


meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 recommendation

reply to pnh102
said by pnh102:

said by lv66vette:

Go ahead and knock FEMA, until you need it, you will be the first in line.

At which point you will be like the poor saps in New Orleans and New York who did not heed the warnings and prepare. Starving and without energy.

We should all simply accept that when (not if) disaster strikes, you will be on your own and no government help will come at all. Plan and prepare accordingly. It is not that hard to do.

How many people DIED in New Orleans waiting for the Feeble Excuse Making Agency? You BETTER be prepared to take care of yourself, because Washington won't.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to alchav
quote:
This is Old Union Mentality, replace Obsolete Copper for job security. You can't fix Copper you have to replace it, so why not do it with Fiber. Copper is even more expensive these days. So spend the money wisely and put it into Fiber connecting equipment that is not obsolete and going to be taken out soon. Verizon in a crises like this does not worry about where the funds are coming from, they could sort that out later. Like I said before, Verizon main concern is The Customer, but they will work in the fastest, most efficient way possible, and utilize their funds effectively.

Strangely, your post didn't address a single one of the problems I brought up. Your dismissal as 'old union mentality' isn't going to help the people who will be out for months waiting for a FIOS roll-out nor the people who live in areas without a franchise (IOW, no chance of FIOS).

There is little doubt in anyone's mind that the shareholders are Verizon's main concern; pretending otherwise is akin to believing in Santa Claus.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Your attack on FEMA is based on one posters speculation that they're giving money to Verizon. I have found no proof of that anywhere.

TRUST ME... if someone else wasn't paying the bill, Verizon wouldn't have us working 12 hr days, 7 days a week; they have lobbied away most of the regulations that would require them to expedite repairs. Verizon has to declare a 'State of emergency' (which forces us to work) in order to get the bucks from Uncle Sam. I don't have proof that it is FEMA but it seems likely since they are tasked with infrastructure recovery... the managers quite openly state we get money from them. Maybe it was just a coincidence that immediately after the FEMA relief fund for hurricane Irene was closed, Verizon's emergency was over and our overtime cut. I will try to dig up some documentation tomorrow at work.


meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit
reply to CXM_Splicer
said by CXM_Splicer:

There is little doubt in anyone's mind that the shareholders are Verizon's main concern; pretending otherwise is akin to believing in Santa Claus.

There IS a Santa Claus, for Verizon anyway. It's name was Sandy this time, and came just a little early and Verizon is going to Ho Ho Ho all the way to the bank.

Before you start, there's a Tooth Fairy too. She rips the gold crowns from taxpayers mouths at night to pay for it all. Her initials are I.R.S.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
reply to CXM_Splicer
said by CXM_Splicer:

quote:
This is Old Union Mentality, replace Obsolete Copper for job security. You can't fix Copper you have to replace it, so why not do it with Fiber. Copper is even more expensive these days. So spend the money wisely and put it into Fiber connecting equipment that is not obsolete and going to be taken out soon. Verizon in a crises like this does not worry about where the funds are coming from, they could sort that out later. Like I said before, Verizon main concern is The Customer, but they will work in the fastest, most efficient way possible, and utilize their funds effectively.

Strangely, your post didn't address a single one of the problems I brought up. Your dismissal as 'old union mentality' isn't going to help the people who will be out for months waiting for a FIOS roll-out nor the people who live in areas without a franchise (IOW, no chance of FIOS).

There is little doubt in anyone's mind that the shareholders are Verizon's main concern; pretending otherwise is akin to believing in Santa Claus.

Remember we are mainly talking about Phone Service, replacing the Copper only deals with Phone and maybe old DSL Internet.

- Because FIOS is not available everywhere the copper was damaged.

Verizon is a Service Company, and they will work with what is available to serve their Customers as fast and efficiently as possible. If there is Fiber there they will use it, if not Verizon will make plans to run Fiber or in some cases where this is not feasible existing Copper will be replaced. A Service Company is there to provide Service.

- The regulations are different for FIOS and people should not be forced on to it.

Regulations for Phone are no different whether on Copper or Fiber. Most people will not know the difference as long as they get Dial Tone.

- It will take much longer to move people into FIOS as opposed to simply fixing the copper.

If the Fiber is there all they have to do is install the Interface Equipment and fire it up Dial Tone is there. Should be no problem.

- In all likelihood, FEMA is giving them money to FIX the copper... not ignore it.

Like I said, Verizon is not worried about the funding, they are a Service Company, and they will provide Service to their Customers in the fastest most efficient way.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
quote:
Verizon is a Service Company, and they will work with what is available to serve their Customers as fast and efficiently as possible. If there is Fiber there they will use it, if not Verizon will make plans to run Fiber or in some cases where this is not feasible existing Copper will be replaced. A Service Company is there to provide Service.
I guess you didn't understand my first post... existing copper is NOT being replaced, that's the point. If you want to pretend that it is, why not just save yourself a step and pretend their phones are already fixed?

quote:
Regulations for Phone are no different whether on Copper or Fiber. Most people will not know the difference as long as they get Dial Tone.

Wrong. FIOS is VoIP, are you familiar with it? Try and call your state PSC and tell them your Vonage or Magic Jack isn't working and you want to file a complaint.

quote:
If the Fiber is there all they have to do is install the Interface Equipment and fire it up Dial Tone is there. Should be no problem.

Well, that I almost agree with... at least those people will get dial tone back. Problem is many don't want FIOS; as was just made perfectly clear, it is unreliable in a power outage. Many don't want to be responsible for replacing a backup battery. Many don't want a large box added to the side of their house. Many don't want to wait the weeks or months it will take to get FIOS to them.

What about the people where the fiber isn't there? What should I tell them?

How about the people who aren't getting fiber and who's copper isn't getting fixed? What should I tell them? Just that it 'should be no problem'?


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
quote:
Verizon is a Service Company, and they will work with what is available to serve their Customers as fast and efficiently as possible. If there is Fiber there they will use it, if not Verizon will make plans to run Fiber or in some cases where this is not feasible existing Copper will be replaced. A Service Company is there to provide Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess you didn't understand my first post... existing copper is NOT being replaced, that's the point. If you want to pretend that it is, why not just save yourself a step and pretend their phones are already fixed?

I said Verizon is a Service Company, and if the Copper is not being replaced there is a good reason. Fiber is a better Infrastructure, and Verizon is probably headed in that direction.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regulations for Phone are no different whether on Copper or Fiber. Most people will not know the difference as long as they get Dial Tone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrong. FIOS is VoIP, are you familiar with it? Try and call your state PSC and tell them your Vonage or Magic Jack isn't working and you want to file a complaint.

Splicer, I know you mean well but you are way off base, FiOS Phone is not VoIP it is a form of Packet Switching. The Phone Data comes over Fiber to the Interface Equipment, and out the RJ11 Jack over the Home Copper Wiring. To the Average Person it's transparent, the Dial Tone sounds a little different. I have an Ooma Line which is VoIP and connected to my Router and the calls come over my Internet connection. Another Digital Phone is TWC that comes over Coax to their Modem...Packet Switching.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Fiber is there all they have to do is install the Interface Equipment and fire it up Dial Tone is there. Should be no problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that I almost agree with... at least those people will get dial tone back. Problem is many don't want FIOS; as was just made perfectly clear, it is unreliable in a power outage. Many don't want to be responsible for replacing a backup battery. Many don't want a large box added to the side of their house. Many don't want to wait the weeks or months it will take to get FIOS to them.

What about the people where the fiber isn't there? What should I tell them?

How about the people who aren't getting fiber and who's copper isn't getting fixed? What should I tell them? Just that it 'should be no problem'?

You are correct FiOS does have some draw backs, the biggest being Power. Sometimes progress has it's short comings, but I'm sure in the future this will be worked out. Bottom line is that Copper Equipment is obsolete and will be eliminated. If the Fiber is not there it will be laid, and like I said, if it's not feasible to run Fiber I'm sure Copper will be used. Verizon will not leave anyone without Service.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
You are apparently unfamiliar with Verizon's Digital Voice service which is the only option for new subs (which storm victim conversions will be) and is a VoIP service. If you make a change to your account, they also will put you on DV service; like it or not.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FiOS_Digit ··· al_Voice

This thread will enlighten you:
»The end of Freedom Essentials

You (and others here) claim that copper is obsolete despite the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of customers across the country still working on it. Do you work for Verizon? Shareholder perhaps? Maybe a contracted PR company? Many people (almost always with a financial interest) claim that any form of less regulation is 'progress'. Your version of progress apparently includes leaving customers without service.

For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized. THX1138


meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY
One would think with all the NOISE coming from Washington about infrastructure security that they would encourage keeping the old copper networks up and running as a backup to the new fiber networks. They do the job (voice and even limited data communications) quite well and in the case of a catastrophic failure (a small example of which we recently saw when two fiber cables were accidentally cut in the Mid West leaving much of the North West in the dark) would at least allow people to communicate. If a couple of accidental cable cuts can wreak this much havoc, what would a planned terrorist assault do?
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
I would at least think that they would demand some kind of quality standard for reliability. Eight hours of phone service is pretty ridiculous in a disaster but they will use the 'most people have a cellphone' excuse as a way out. As we saw, cell service doesn't fare well in a disaster either.


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma

1 edit
reply to CXM_Splicer
said by CXM_Splicer:

You are apparently unfamiliar with Verizon's Digital Voice service which is the only option for new subs (which storm victim conversions will be) and is a VoIP service. If you make a change to your account, they also will put you on DV service; like it or not.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FiOS_Digit ··· al_Voice

You (and others here) claim that copper is obsolete despite the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of customers across the country still working on it. Do you work for Verizon? Shareholder perhaps? Maybe a contracted PR company? Many people (almost always with a financial interest) claim that any form of less regulation is 'progress'. Your version of progress apparently includes leaving customers without service.

Okay, I did some research and Verizon Digital Voice is VoIP, and Wikipedia is correct. Phone Service is all Packets, but the delivery is the difference. FiOS Digital Voice are Laser Light Signals sent over the Fiber from the C.O. Equipment to the Premise ONT and converted to Electronic Signals and then out on the RJ11 at the ONT connected to the Phone. VoIP has Voice Packets or Data coming over the Internet portion of FiOS at the ONT and out the RJ45 or Coax to the Modem/Router. Digital Phone makes for a better Quality of Voice.

I know what I am talking about, I retired from PacBell with 31 great years. I started as a young Frame Person in a Step C.O. in L.A., and retired a Second Level Service Manager in San Jose. As for Copper being obsolete, it had it's run, and you guys are correct, "It takes a Licken and keeps on Ticken." I saw Copper go through many Storms, and we kept the Dial Tone coming. That Equipment is old and has to be replaced. Things just don't last forever, no matter how much we like them.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
Somehow 'Okay, I did some research' and 'I know what I am talking about' just don't go together well:

quote:
Verizon’s FiOS Digital Voice was always digital, but relied on central switches to route phone calls. Now the product uses Session Internet Protocols and softswitches in the home to privately manage calls on Verizon’s network which increases QoS while also reducing costs for Verizon

»gigaom.com/2010/06/04/verizons-d ··· ll-voip/

quote:
Verizon has announced a VoIP-based service for its residential FiOS customers: FiOS Digital Voice has been launched in 11 states and the District of Columbia.

»www.networkworld.com/newsletters ··· ce1.html

said by Verizon :
3. What is Digital Voice broadband phone service?

Digital Voice is a Voice-over-Internet-Protocol (VoIP) service that offers phone service over a broadband Internet connection instead of through a traditional telephone network.

»support.verizonwireless.com/clc/ ··· hub.html

said by the Digital Voice User Guide :
Since your FiOS Digital Voice service is VoIP-based, you aren’t
limited to a telephone number from your local area.

»www22.verizon.com/fiosvoice/user ··· uide.pdf

The main point that you are neglecting is that many customers will be without phone service for MONTHS while Verizon rolls out FIOS to all the effected areas. CLECs will never be reconnected. How exactly is this 'Customer Service'?


meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY
reply to CXM_Splicer
With everything going LTE things just got a whole lot worse for cellphone reliability from a security standpoint (see tonights news about knocking out a city's LTE network for around $700). I hate to say it, but that old copper network really has the best reliability. Little pieces could get knocked off by a tree, but it was really hard to knock out much more than a neighborhood without a LOT of work.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
reply to CXM_Splicer
Okay Splicer, you were correct, FiOS Digital Voice is VoIP I was wrong. I corrected my previous Post. It's all Packet Data now and Convergence has taken over. The traditional PSTN is going to be a thing of the past, and I guess that is what you were saying we should keep it as a back up. I'm sure they will as long as it is possible. These old Networks come in handy in time of crisis.

As for your main concern, rolling out FiOS is going to take longer than replacing damaged Copper. I'm sure Verizon will take all this into account and will come up with a plan to provide Service to their Customers as fast as possible. The CLEC's are Customers too and Verizon will come up with a plan to take care of them.


postjosh

join:2006-01-01
New York, NY
reply to CXM_Splicer
my dsl has been down since sandy as has the pots service all over my neighborhood of manhattan. our verizon co was severely damaged in the storm. my repair ticket currently has an expected resolution date of dec 1. this hasn't stopped verizon from aggressively knocking on doors in my apartment building to try to upsell us fios. my wife let them in because they were wearing verizon uniforms and she thought they were here to repair the phones. i don't need a big box stuck to the wall of my apartment like my neighbors have with the wires snaking all over the place. my dsl setup is very neat and there is nothing i need to upgrade. i can stream movies use voip and two laptops simultaneously. just fix my dsl, please and take your triple play and go suck an egg!

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
Your DSL will NOT be repaired. You will be moved to FIOS under the same price you are currently paying (for now). If you don't want that option, you will have to go with another carrier.


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
reply to postjosh
Splicer is correct, if your Verizon C.O. was damaged they are going to disconnect and pull out all that Old DSL Equipment, and not replace the Copper, especially when there is Fiber. I know sometimes it sucks to upgrade, but those are the heart aches of progress. The new Equipment and Wiring should be out of site, in a Closet and the Wiring in the walls.