Topic 'Re: cement experts - does this look right?' in forum 'Home Improvement' - dslreports.com

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Thu, 15 Nov 2012 04:39:05 EDT

Beezel posted : If there are permits then there has to be a inspector somewhere.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Thu, 15 Nov 2012 02:07:31 EDT

dib22 posted : I'm still not clear who the inspector is, the house is out in an area where the county does not even have an inspector. I'll ask him when I run by there, I suspect its the future houses insurance company inspector.

Since it was only that corner and access area they will be re-inspecting it but they can start building. When I am around there I will get some pics and post em so we can see how it looks.

My understanding they are not patching it yet due to temp they keep hoping for a warm up week or some rough electrical to use a tent/heater solution.

EDIT: and that pier was a mistake in more ways than one, it isn't used by the plans, I know they had the fireplace moved so I suspect it was a remnant from that re-location.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:01:34 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by Sc0tt:

so..........we've gone from "does this pour look ok" to fighting city hall and what a-holes inspectors are?

pour looks like shit. it needs to be redone correctly.

Still choosing not to wait for the inspector?

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:47:39 EDT

Sc0tt posted : so..........we've gone from "does this pour look ok" to fighting city hall and what a-holes inspectors are?

pour looks like shit. it needs to be redone correctly.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:02:33 EDT

JoelC707 posted :

said by AVD:

The inspector has to give professional courtesy to the contractors, but they have to be courteous to the public too. I cannot think of any public service employee (that is not uniformed) that can get away with a vendetta against a citizen.

While in practice I agree with you, this is the way it should be handled. Unfortunately too often it isn't handled this way. What it really boils to is do you have the money to fight "city hall"? Some do and I've seen some that have that trump card hidden up their sleeve. Trust me, you NEED that trump card if you try and take on "city hall" because otherwise they generally have the "my shit don't stink" and "I can do whatever I want" attitude that really needs to be put back in it's place.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:26:59 EDT

dennismurphy posted :

said by AVD:

I cannot think of any public service employee (that is not uniformed) that can get away with a vendetta against a citizen.

Are you SURE you live in NJ??

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:42:34 EDT

AVonGauss posted : You're talking philosophy, cdru is talking in practice.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:39:46 EDT

cdru posted :

said by AVD:

I cannot think of any public service employee (that is not uniformed) that can get away with a vendetta against a citizen.

EPA, IRS, FBI, Department of Health, DHS, DoD, prosecutors office, ...

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:22:00 EDT

AVD posted : The inspector has to give professional courtesy to the contractors, but they have to be courteous to the public too. I cannot think of any public service employee (that is not uniformed) that can get away with a vendetta against a citizen.
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Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:19:17 EDT

cdru posted :

said by AVD:

which makes him an employee of the people of the state/city/county/whatever.

You don't determined if he is hired/fired. You don't determine his job performance. You don't get to tell him what to do or not do. You don't set rules for his job. There is no employer-employee relationship between you and him. He works for the people, but he is not your employee.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:15:52 EDT

AVD posted :

said by cdru:

He's an employee of the state/city/county/whatever.

which makes him an employee of the people of the state/city/county/whatever.
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Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 10:53:24 EDT

cdru posted :

said by AVD:

the inspector is not god, and as a civil servant, is also an employee of the owner.

No, he's not an employee of the owner. He's an employee of the state/city/county/whatever. You pay a permit and/or inspection fee, but that doesn't make him an employee of you. He is supposed to be unbiased and not have a dog in the fight with determining which side wins as long as the work is done to code.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 10:49:18 EDT

nunya posted : After seeing some of the work a few of my fellow electrical contractors have done "on the sly", I'm all for 3rd party inspections.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 10:15:51 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted :

said by Rifleman:

Up here in Ontario the inspector doesn't even have to see the place for electrical. There is a list of "approved contractors" that never have their work checked out---and the places I've done suggest they should be.

That's only true for a small percentage of electrical contractors - ones that have consistently over a period of years have NOT had any inspection problems. Only those contractors are permitted to self-inspect. And the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) does do random inspections of work done by these authorized self-inspecting contractors, to ensure that they are meeting electrical code.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:48:09 EDT

AVD posted : These things happen even with the best contractors, (but more often with the worst) Its what the contractor does to rectify the situation that makes him a good one or a hack.
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Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:46:08 EDT

AVD posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

Most definitely but in the end the contractor is working for the customer

this

said by Jack_in_VA:

and if the contractor has problems with the AHJ's then the customer will suffer. I can tell you that if you aggravate an inspector too much you better be ready.

the inspector is not god, and as a civil servant, is also an employee of the owner. This being said, this should be resolved outside of the AHJ's oversight.

As the owner, I would not allow it even to go to inspection, then again, I have a little experience in these sort of things.

Back to your original point, having a pissed off contractor is no picnic either.
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Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:35:58 EDT

AVD posted :

said by cdru:

The foundation might be able to be fixed. The pier needs to be removed and completely redone.

That's my layman's opinion in the OP's state.
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Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:52:50 EDT

Tig posted : Back on topic. I've been researching honeycombing and it's repair.
Here's a thread where engineers discuss a case.
»www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=230978
Each case is of course different. So if it does need to be repaired, would you trust the guys who screwed up the job in the first place?

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:31:14 EDT

Tig posted : Sure I have. I had an inspector go off on me over a home I designed. I made an appointment to see him. We sat down, he backed off. I have a great relationship with that county now. If you're knowledgeable and respectful, it works out.
In the end, code is code. It's all in black and white.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:27:34 EDT

dib22 posted :

said by MaynardKrebs:

Are the sections we're looking at above or below grade?
If above grade, how much further up do they extend?

Above grade, and they go to thigh high. There is a cement footing (around 3x their width) under them with rebar that connects into these.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:23:42 EDT

Rifleman posted : Up here in Ontario the inspector doesn't even have to see the place for electrical. There is a list of "approved contractors" that never have their work checked out---and the places I've done suggest they should be.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:32:43 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by kherr:

]
Been there done that. We used to have problems with the plumbing inspector in this one town. He would make shit up just to fail inspections. Being Illinois, we have fairly strict state codes. A city/county may made additional requirements as long as it makes the code more restrictive than state, but you must have an ordinance to do so. The plumbers would play the game but when it would get out of hand a plumber would call his bluff. The inspector and plumber would go to Springfield and present their cases to the Department of Public Health. The DPH guy would excuse the plumber but hold back the inspector, to which he would give him an ear full. Needless to say they would get tired of this and would call the city to have him fired. They went through 6 inspectors in 4 years before they found someone that knew what they were doing.

Exactly what I was referring to. They can make life miserable.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:27:03 EDT

kherr posted : ]
Been there done that. We used to have problems with the plumbing inspector in this one town. He would make shit up just to fail inspections. Being Illinois, we have fairly strict state codes. A city/county may made additional requirements as long as it makes the code more restrictive than state, but you must have an ordinance to do so. The plumbers would play the game but when it would get out of hand a plumber would call his bluff. The inspector and plumber would go to Springfield and present their cases to the Department of Public Health. The DPH guy would excuse the plumber but hold back the inspector, to which he would give him an ear full. Needless to say they would get tired of this and would call the city to have him fired. They went through 6 inspectors in 4 years before they found someone that knew what they were doing.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:12:18 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by Beezel:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm sure if you make the inspector look bad you better not have the least thing in your construction not completely up to code. Payback is no fun if you're on the receiving end. People on here can talk tough. After all they (we) are anonymous and will suffer no consequences.

IMO the best thing for the OP is to wait for the inspection and go from there if he has to. I'm sure there are many certified experts that will gladly assist him if needed.

If the construction was new and not code compliant (per ticked off inspector), would that fall on the contractor's shoulders and not the home owner?

Most definitely but in the end the contractor is working for the customer and if the contractor has problems with the AHJ's then the customer will suffer. I can tell you that if you aggravate an inspector too much you better be ready.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:06:57 EDT

Beezel posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

If the construction was new and not code compliant (per ticked off inspector), would that fall on the contractor's shoulders and not the home owner?

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:30:12 EDT

Rambo76098 posted : Holy snot, that's not concrete, that's gravel with glue drizzled on. I used to be in construction administration and we would never accepted that. Contractor would be demo'ing the whole thing and starting over, or, if we were really pissed, paying for another contractor to re-do.

I'd love to see some core samples... they'd probably have to use a vacuum to get the whole core out lol.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 17:45:11 EDT

stevek1949 posted : ^ That!

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:33:35 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by Tig:

Jack, it's not about making the inspector look bad. Quite the opposite, It's about peace of mind. The engineer will prescribe a sound solution and that takes the burden off the inspector.
Besides, the OP asked for expert input. Civil engineer is at the top of that food chain.

Evidently you've never encountered a vindictive inspector have you? He/she can make your life pure hell from that minute on. A "sound solution" by someone that counters the inspectors determination does not take any burden off the inspector. More like puts a chip on his shoulder.

Give the inspector a chance. Good grief he/she has not even inspected it yet.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:55:47 EDT

Tig posted : Jack, it's not about making the inspector look bad. Quite the opposite, It's about peace of mind. The engineer will prescribe a sound solution and that takes the burden off the inspector.
Besides, the OP asked for expert input. Civil engineer is at the top of that food chain.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:37:24 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by Tig:

Mention to the inspector that you have concerns and are going to consult a civil engineer. His word trumps the inspector. Don't be antagonistic or confrontational. Also follow up with the general contractor to let him know the plan. Insist that your guy be allowed to inspect the foundation before any repair/cover work up us done. Other wise they may just patch, parge and run.
I've had a difference of opinion with an inspector a couple times and in both cases they suggested consulting an engineer so that I could have it my way. I've paid $75 and $140 for an engineer,s stamped letter. It's a pain, but it's much cheaper than lawyers.
Also, once the framing starts check the level on the corner in the first pic. That's quite a flare to the top of the foundation.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:03:02 EDT

Tig posted : Mention to the inspector that you have concerns and are going to consult a civil engineer. His word trumps the inspector. Don't be antagonistic or confrontational. Also follow up with the general contractor to let him know the plan. Insist that your guy be allowed to inspect the foundation before any repair/cover work up us done. Other wise they may just patch, parge and run.
I've had a difference of opinion with an inspector a couple times and in both cases they suggested consulting an engineer so that I could have it my way. I've paid $75 and $140 for an engineer,s stamped letter. It's a pain, but it's much cheaper than lawyers.
Also, once the framing starts check the level on the corner in the first pic. That's quite a flare to the top of the foundation.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:41:25 EDT

kherr posted : If the inspector passes it, I'd get someone that is licensed to inspect it. After they fail it have a detailed report made and give it to the inspector/contractor then ask if they still are sure it's not flawed. It'd probably be easier to go after the city than contractor because when pushed into a corner and not having proper credentials he'll back down and fail it.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:50:24 EDT

themagicone posted : I'd take pictures, tons of them. If the city is in the contractors pocket and the contractor won't do anything - I'd get out the sledge hammer. They'd have to fix it after I got done. When they asked me to pay I'd show the pictures... No court would be in their favor showing the poor work they wouldn't fix.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:18:53 EDT

sancraig posted : There are multiple products that can be used for this application most have a higher structural strength than the concrete.

EMACO� S66 CI

ZERO-C� Vertical/Overhead Mortar

EMACO� R300 CI

Gel Patch

»www.buildingsystems.basf.com/p02···pair.pdf

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:52:10 EDT

mattmag posted :

That pier is a friggin joke! How in the hell you can manage to pour pure gravel into a form and think it is OK is insane. There's nothing there for concrete at all! I do not believe for one second that *any* of that work is acceptable anywhere on the site. You can't have that big of a mess in just a couple of places when it looks like that.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:15:45 EDT

cdru posted :

said by linicx:

I don't know where you live, but in the good old days to keep basement walls dry, the entire outside surface of the basement walls from Sill to below the basement floor was plastered and covered in tar and then a french drain was installed .

We must be old fashioned here as that's still how they do it here.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:35:12 EDT

linicx posted : I don't know where you live, but in the good old days to keep basement walls dry, the entire outside surface of the basement walls from Sill to below the basement floor was plastered and covered in tar and then a french drain was installed .
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Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:31:07 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by Draiman:

I just had foundation work done myself. Here's what it should look like.

When I was a kid, I got to witness the construction of some 50 houses over 2-3 years. I'd go visit the houses in mid-construction when the workers finished their shifts, or on weekends (no construction going on).

YET, up until the age of 27, I never knew concrete had gravel inside. That's just to say I never ever saw any foundation pour that showed gravel over the something 50 houses visited.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:11:17 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted :

said by dib22:

My understanding is that you want a nice solid sealed stem wall no matter what, but this house will be bricked... could they be counting on the brick to protect this section?

Are the sections we're looking at above or below grade?
If above grade, how much further up do they extend?

If this is above grade and there is only a couple of feet to the top of the pour, I'd still get it inspected, but for above grade it'll probably just be patched.

For patching, make sure that the existing concrete is thoroughly wetted with an acrylic bonding agent and then I'd probably use a non-shrink grout to fill the gaps.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:05:35 EDT

Draiman posted : I just had foundation work done myself. Here's what it should look like.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 08:48:57 EDT

ropeguru posted :

said by dib22:

A friend is having a house built and they poured the foundation walls and in a few spots they look like this...

[att=1]

[att=2]

Should these be re-done? I have the feeling they should but haven't said anything until I get some expert inputs... any ideas?

Not only that, but by the time it does fail and the contractor has closed that particular company name up and moved on to a new name, there will be no legal recourse.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 08:27:05 EDT

cdru posted :

said by boaterbob:

...
Have him sign something!!

That signature will bring a lot of comfort when the deck collapses and someone is injured when the pier crumbles. Or when a portion of the house is destroyed because the foundation just fell apart.

The foundation might be able to be fixed. The pier needs to be removed and completely redone. There is no way that it can be fixed and still have any strength close to what it was originally designed for. And even if I had to pay for it with my own dime, I'd be having my own inspection done over the entire pour. There's no telling what else is hidden just under the surface that you can't see.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 06:29:44 EDT

boaterbob posted : If after all is said and done - and nothing is done to properly make things right - ask the contractor to sign a letter you write saying something like - "I have reviewed the areas of concern in the concrete poured at on and find the concrete to be sufficient quality and structural strength to properly support the planned house ....."

The idea is to make the contractor put in writing (you write, he signs the letter) that he acknowledges that the job is proper and that he says there will be no problem!

When he see the letter he may decide that maybe you are correct and the work should be done over (or corrected properly) rather than him putting his signature on the letter and be liable for any future problems.

Have him sign something!!

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 02:26:15 EDT

Raphion posted : Just to throw in my agreement with the others here, you might as well use sandstone as your foundation as that. Kinda looks like the concrete was already nearly set when they poured it?

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:23:45 EDT

jrs8084 posted : Well, I guess that is a splendid example of stratification. :huh:

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:39:38 EDT

PoloDude posted : Holy crap that's a support pier!? Where's the cement? I wouldn't mount anything on that.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:03:34 EDT

nonymous posted :

said by sancraig:

Yes, if they poured an entire homes foundation, and this was the the only issue he should count himself lucky.

Not to say he should accept this but there are much worse pours than that. Could of had a cold joint, could have been much worse.

Hell seen worse on bridge abutments, guess what they did? They patched it.

If it were my house I would rather them patch this 2'x2' area than cut it out and re-pour it with a seam. I think everybody is very optimistic thinking its all going to be re-poured cause of a 2x2 area.

Op please let us know what becomes of this.

Thanks

Repair the fault area if all else ia ok. Make me feel bad about driving over a bridge.

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:00:11 EDT

dib22 posted :

said by sancraig:

If it were my house I would rather them patch this 2'x2' area than cut it out and re-pour it with a seam. I think everybody is very optimistic thinking its all going to be re-poured cause of a 2x2 area.

That area is the only big area... and the 'access portal' edges which is right near the bad corner... there is 1 pier that looks like this as well, I'll attach that here:

[att=1]

Other than the corner and that pier it generally looks pretty good.

Got any expert advise on how to seal up that re-bar? Some magic mix that will make it all good again? :D

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:08:30 EDT

dib22 posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

If it were me there is no way that I would not be there for that inspection....

I am with you 100%!

Re: cement experts - does this look right?

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:02:20 EDT

sancraig posted :

said by dib22:

Could it be sealed to prevent the water if indeed it has the structural integrity?

Yes it can be with several patch products. Best would have been sand and cement on the day the wall forms were stripped. The wall would have been still green and would have adhered without any special patch.