Topic 'Re: Gas lines and DIY' in forum 'Home Improvement' - dslreports.com

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:47:12 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted : Indiana home explosion investigated as homicide

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:52:27 EDT

DataDoc posted :

If Mythbusters failed, they must have done it wrong. ;)

Here's someone that did it right:
»www.washingtonpost.com/local/poo···ory.html
--
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Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:50:44 EDT

ttiiggy posted :

said by PSWired:

Technically the sealing mechanism in that fitting you showed is compression, but the trade name for it is a flare fitting. A compression fitting is the type that uses a crushable sleeve around the exterior of a pipe to create a seal

Yes. True all that.

I was thinking about the technical compressing sealing and not the name of compression fitting.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:35:01 EDT

PSWired posted : Technically the sealing mechanism in that fitting you showed is compression, but the trade name for it is a flare fitting. A compression fitting is the type that uses a crushable sleeve around the exterior of a pipe to create a seal:

[att=1]

Not trying to nitpick, just clearing things up.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:28:22 EDT

ttiiggy posted : A compression fitting seals on the section outlined in red here. Sealing has nothing to do with the threads on a compression fitting.
[att=1]

Regular pipe threads DO need dope or teflon tape or both.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:20:00 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by cdru:

said by Jack_in_VA:

These incidents is why I will stick with my electric appliances. Stove, Dryer and Heatpump.

said by Jack_in_VA:

I worked with enough gas at our power plant to last several lifetimes so I think I am fully qualified to have my beliefs. A gas furnace, water heater or stove is not in itself dangerous. They only become dangerous when DIY types who think they are experts start working on them.

In one quote you say you're sticking with electric appliances because of these incidents. But then you say that the appliances aren't inherently dangerous, but the problem is that people who are unqualified work on them. Wouldn't unqualified or DIY electricians be no different?

They would but the subject issue is gas Gas Lines & DIY not electrical.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:17:41 EDT

cdru posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

These incidents is why I will stick with my electric appliances. Stove, Dryer and Heatpump.

said by Jack_in_VA:

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:51:55 EDT

fifty nine posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

Right after Sandy hit big time in NY & NJ there were many broken gas lines with gas just spewing out everywhere. Of course people were petrified of an explosion.

But as far as I know there weren't any explosions.

Meanwhile people have gotten electrocuted from downed utility lines.

Electric appliances suck. An electric stove is too slow to come up to temperature and a water heater doesn't recover as quickly as gas.

Not to mention you can't really power them full time during a power outage with a portable genny like your EB5000X.

We were cooking, doing laundry, taking showers AS USUAL even with the power off.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:51:32 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by cdru:

said by Jack_in_VA:

These incidents is why I will stick with my electric appliances. Stove, Dryer and Heatpump.

How many people are shocked or electrocuted vs the number of people are burned or killed in a gas explosion each year?

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:43:15 EDT

Goober posted : Yeah, the electric panel gives me the willies.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:33:39 EDT

Draiman posted :

said by Goober:

When it comes to things like that, unless I'm supremely confident about my abilities, I stay away from DIY where there are possible safety consequences. A poor cope cut never killed anyone.

Same with me. I won't touch anything gas related and I'll only do electrical stuff that doesn't involve touching the panel. If I need to touch the panel I have a licensed professional do it.
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Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:18:50 EDT

cdru posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

These incidents is why I will stick with my electric appliances. Stove, Dryer and Heatpump.

How many people are shocked or electrocuted vs the number of people are burned or killed in a gas explosion each year?

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:35:15 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted : Right after Sandy hit big time in NY & NJ there were many broken gas lines with gas just spewing out everywhere. Of course people were petrified of an explosion.

Good Morning America had a segment where they filmed a demonstration of a training facility in Virginia Beach Virgina for firefighters in handling gas leaks like that.

They had open gas lines buried in sand and other configurations that a firefighter might encounter.

They used a torch to light off each and every gas source. No explosions. Just a giant torch on each one. It was neat to see sand burning on the ones with the open end of the pipe buried in the sand.

Bottom line was the gas escaping outdoors posed little to no chance of causing an explosion. Of course these leaks would cause a big fire if ignited.

The woman that was blown out of the house should have been able to smell the gas as it was at a concentration sufficient to produce an explosion of that magnitude. One has to wonder about these incidents.

These incidents is why I will stick with my electric appliances. Stove, Dryer and Heatpump.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 04:35:19 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by XPAMD:

That episode was based in the movie where the guys shoots (i forget which gun) through a carton of milk which supposedly prevents the explosion. They proved that its not the milk, but the gun doesn't produce enough spark.

It wasn't until they changed from Natural gas to Hydrogen Gas could they get an ignition if I am not mistaken.

Gas will ignite with the RIGHT ignition source/temp and gas/air mix.

/Facepalm

Yes I remember now!
They also tried to start an explosion by putting a magazine in a toaster.

They weren't actually trying to make an impressive explosion.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:32:35 EDT

XPAMD posted :

said by XoX:

said by alkizmo:

Someone needs to send this link to Mythbusters.
They did an episode on whether a building can blow up from a gas leak (based on a Jason Bourne movie) and they couldn't replicate an explosion.

They need to revisit the myth because that building obviously blew up!

Hum... go watch that episode again since they did blow up the house but only reached that by increasing the amount of gas in the house.

They only failed to do it like in the movie.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:06:22 EDT

XoX posted :

said by alkizmo:

Hum... go watch that episode again since they did blow up the house but only reached that by increasing the amount of gas in the house.

They only failed to do it like in the movie.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 21:14:18 EDT

Zach 58 posted :

said by alkizmo:

No amount of Mythbuster gas explosion failures will convince me gas won't explode a building. :o Back some 40 years ago in the one blinking stop light town in Manitoba where I'm from, there was a small barbershop just across the football field from the high school. One Saturday, in the wee hours of the morning, it went KABOOM. What started as a brick-faced, concrete block building was reduced to a basement with few steel beams remaining. The remainder was sprinkled all over town with the bulk landing in the football field.

Fast forward a few eons, after a couple of decades of being in the local volunteer fire company, I've seen my fair share of gas versus building along with creative homeowner repair failures. One of the most notable was a call on a very cold early morning for a structure fire. When we rolled up the fire was out but, what was a two-story farm house was now a 1.25 story house. The wife/mother was standing, dazed and confused, out in the -20*F cold wearing nothing but a nightgown. She stated that she turned on a stove burner to make coffee and saw a bright flash, heard a loud boom and was instantly in the back yard. Amazingly, she was unhurt other than some scorched hair. In each of the upstairs bedrooms we found the husband and teen-aged son. Both were laying on the floor beside the bed. Above each bed was a body impression in the ceiling. They were both seriously injured but survived.

If Mythbusters failed, they must have done it wrong. ;)
--
Zach

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:28:12 EDT

Warzau posted :

said by Goober:

said by SwedishRider:

said by Goober:

When it comes to things like that, unless I'm supremely confident about my abilities, I stay away from DIY where there are possible safety consequences. A poor cope cut never killed anyone.

Same here. Electrical and propane work I always sub out to the pros. I research and come up with solution ideas, but when the rubber hits the road, I know when I don't know and call in reputable pros to get the job done right.

Yeah, there are just some things I don't want to take chances on, especially with a family.

Ditto!

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:29:05 EDT

id09542 posted : Technology marches on, I just love using stainless steel flex lines now for these long runs. Ends up being less expensive due to not needing fittings.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:27:49 EDT

cdru posted :

said by Ken:

I'm just guessing mine was about 3"

Quoted for posterity. Hopefully that was NOT what she said. :P

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:56:57 EDT

Ken posted : There were 4 couplers, a union, and 2 elbows. So 12 threaded connections on the horizontal run total and if each one goes in a 1/4" farther that's exactly 3". I'm just guessing mine was about 3" shorter, I didn't actually measure it.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:53:22 EDT

Aranarth posted : don't worry I used the right amount - just enough to cover the treads and only on the pipe so the excess is on the outside of the pipe, and I used the stuff that came with the flexline which I assumed was dope...

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:12:00 EDT

Hall posted :

said by Ken:

When I was done that 40' run across the ceiling was 3" shorter than before because of how much more I tightened the connections.

That's great ! How many joints ? I mean, between "snug" tight and properly tight is what, less than a 1/4" of thread ? Those must have been really, really loose ! :(

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:31:28 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by cdru:

I don't think it's a myth that a building can blow up due to a gas leak. There's evidence in Indy, and with that in the news around here (120m north of Indy), a lot of people know of smaller explosions where friends or relatives were injured. DSLR even featured one that's about 10 miles away from Ken's current location. The myth is how the explosion happens, and the damage it causes.

Cause not determined for explosion

quote:
"It is still an investigation so we're very limited on the information we can give out," said Gary Coons, the chief of the Indianapolis division of the Department of Homeland Security. "We're looking at everything -- all causes, all possibilities. There's a lot of possibilities out there. ... There's a lot of possibilities that could trigger an explosion like this."

Authorities said they had launched a probe into the explosion, but cautioned they might not know the cause for days.

"You're talking days -- it could be weeks," Capt. Rita Burris, spokeswoman for the Indianapolis Fire Department, told ABC News. "They're going over the scene and processing evidence. It's still in the investigation stage."

Sarah Holsapple, a spokeswoman for Citizens Energy, said that no gas leaks had been found and that other lines were being tested. She said, however, that she did not know how long the testing would take.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:31:11 EDT

leibold posted :

said by nyrrule27:

stop playing with the barn and get the safe open

One doesn't have to exclude the other. Just think about the possibility of using a barn filled with the right gas and air mixture to open that safe rather quickly ;)
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Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:19:26 EDT

telco_mtl posted :

said by alkizmo:

anyone from montreal should be aware of this one!!
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_He···Disaster

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:14:25 EDT

cdru posted :

said by alkizmo:

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 09:10:56 EDT

alkizmo posted : Someone needs to send this link to Mythbusters.
They did an episode on whether a building can blow up from a gas leak (based on a Jason Bourne movie) and they couldn't replicate an explosion.

They need to revisit the myth because that building obviously blew up!

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:53:19 EDT

HarryH3 posted :

said by fifty nine:

said by robbin:

Not only that, but you don't use dope on the flex line from the valve to the appliance.

You don't? What do you use then?

The threads on flare fittings and compression fittings are not there to act as a seal against leakage. They simply apply pressure against the connection to force it to seal properly. Using pipe dope on those is a waste of time and pipe dope. ;)

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:35:17 EDT

Goober posted :

said by SwedishRider:

said by Goober:

When it comes to things like that, unless I'm supremely confident about my abilities, I stay away from DIY where there are possible safety consequences. A poor cope cut never killed anyone.

Yeah, there are just some things I don't want to take chances on, especially with a family.
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Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:47:12 EDT

Shadow01 posted :

said by nyrrule27:

stop playing with the barn and get the safe open

What he said :D

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:04:53 EDT

pike posted :

said by fifty nine:

You don't? What do you use then?

Nothing on a flare fitting.. !

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:03:36 EDT

kherr posted : I'm figure he means the flare fitting on the supply and flare fitting on the appliance, which are a machine fit. If that leaks toss the fitting and get new ones.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:58:17 EDT

fifty nine posted :

said by robbin:

Not only that, but you don't use dope on the flex line from the valve to the appliance.

You don't? What do you use then?

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:56:34 EDT

SwedishRider posted :

said by Goober:

When it comes to things like that, unless I'm supremely confident about my abilities, I stay away from DIY where there are possible safety consequences. A poor cope cut never killed anyone.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:50:11 EDT

Zach 58 posted :

said by jrs8084:

Sadly, there is a smoldering pile of debris about 75 miles southwest of you that underscores the the damage a gas leak can do.

This tragedy made the news up here. The pictures from the scene are truly shocking. When having a look around one of the local television station's website, I found this video....

»www.wishtv.com/dpp/video/video-h···-damages

At first click, I thought it was something from the AHJ but it wasn't a few seconds that I realized it was some home inspector. While he doesn't seem to grasp how a thermocouple works on a gas valve, it was curious that he mentioned CSST, made a few points known about physical damage and held up a sample while speaking. It was almost as if he wanted to comment on the more serious problems with CSST but stopped short.
--
Zach

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:58:38 EDT

robbin posted : Not only that, but you don't use dope on the flex line from the valve to the appliance.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:34:47 EDT

pike posted :

said by Aranarth:

You better believe I used plenty of dope.

Applying excessive dope is just as much as a rookie mistake as not using enough. It's not likely to be a safety concern in a residential application, but it will invariably lead to damaged or inoperative gas appliances.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:31:34 EDT

nyrrule27 posted : stop playing with the barn and get the safe open

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:22:47 EDT

Aranarth posted : On the plus side, your gas bill will be much lower next time you re-up.

I'm also on an LP tank, but we had pro-installers put everything in.
The only thing I did was the line from the floor tap to the dryer.

You better believe I used plenty of dope. We left it as is with the lp supplied and then went back 2 days later with a black light, and the sniff test.

It seems to have passed.

I had a friend come back with an off-gas detector (he works for the local gas co) and that did not detect anything either.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:21:27 EDT

Goober posted : When it comes to things like that, unless I'm supremely confident about my abilities, I stay away from DIY where there are possible safety consequences. A poor cope cut never killed anyone.
--
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Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:09:02 EDT

Ken posted : That was on my mind on Sunday when I was working on it. It's actually a miracle that the barn never blew up at some point in the past. It smelled so strong in there, but it didn't occur to me that it was a gas leak.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:32:32 EDT

jrs8084 posted : Sadly, there is a smoldering pile of debris about 75 miles southwest of you that underscores the the damage a gas leak can do.

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:31:10 EDT

robbin posted : Not sure what you are saying. In this installation copper was used underground and black pipe inside a building. What are you saying is wrong with that?

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:22:42 EDT

cableties posted : DIY with education.

If Propane (LP), a copper line is acceptable in most areas for underground as it won't oxidize from the LP.
But Black pipe will. Codes are for this reason. Which I am surprised it was permitted.

check this out:
»www.propane101.com/lpgasserviceline.htm
--
Splat

Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:10:47 EDT

rfhar posted : Things have changed over the decades. My grandfather was a master carpenter at the turn of the last century when it was not uncommon for carpenters to do the plumbing and electrical. His way of seeing if a circuit was hot was to wet his finger and stick the finger in a socket. I watched him check a new gas line (black pipe) by running a match along it after turning the gas.

The "good" ole days. Maybe this step was not done?
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Re: Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:43:27 EDT

LazMan posted : Wow...

That's how people get dead.

Glad no one was hurt... I'm not a particularlly letigious (I probably spelled that wrong) guy - but I may be tempted to speak to your realtor and/or lawyer - besides the risk you were placed in (no harm, no foul) - there's the actually monetary loss of 6 months worth of propane leaking out and into the wind...

Gas lines and DIY

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:53:44 EDT

Ken posted : I fully support the idea of homeowners doing work themselves, but it's very important to understand your own limitations. Dealing with black iron pipe and natural gas or propane is something you can DIY if you have the proper knowledge. In fact you could probably watch a couple seasons of This Old House and learn all the important bits from watching Richard Trethewey. If you have never done it before get someone who has to help you and check your work.

Ok off my soapbox now. We moved 6 months ago to a new property with house and pole barn all built in 1997. We are the 3rd owners of the property, the 2nd owner didn't use the barn for anything except storing his lawn mower. I wanted to fix it up and use it as my workshop. We noticed right away the barn smelled really bad, but I didn't investigate because I figured it was just the barn itself that smelled bad. 6 months later the barn is cleaned out and yet it still smells. We have a 500 gallon propane tank on one side of the barn. The propane runs through copper underground from tank to barn. Then through 1/2" black iron up the wall, across the trusses, and back down the far wall. It then transitions back to copper and goes underground about 100' to the house.
[att=1]

Come to find out the black iron is leaking. I get soapy water and find that almost every single joint I check is leaking. I go and check the black iron in the basement of the house and no leaks at all. I notice the black iron in the basement appears to be professionally installed, but the black iron in the barn does not. I'm assuming the 1st homeowner had a real contractor install the pipe in the house and then either ran the black iron in the barn himself or hired some hack off the street to do it. This weekend I took apart every single joint of the black iron in the barn. What I found was each and every connection came loose extremely easy. I would guess they hand tightened the pipe and then used a pipe wrench to turn it maybe 1/2 turn past hand tight. The second thing I noticed was almost no dope at all on the threads in the connection, only outside. Not sure if he forgot dope and then walked around and smeared it on later to pass inspection or what happened.

[att=2]

[att=3]

But basically out of the 34 threaded connection points in the barn 20 of them were leaking. 3 of those I would term as major leaks. This appears to have been this way since 1997. Only reason the barn never blew up was it has so many air leaks it couldn't reach the proper air/fuel ratio for explosion. So I cleaned off as much dope as I could. I then used brand new dope for gas lines and tightened the connections properly. When I was done that 40' run across the ceiling was 3" shorter than before because of how much more I tightened the connections. I checked everything again and no surprise I didn't have any leaks. The other no surprise is 24 hours later and the barn suddenly doesn't smell bad anymore.