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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to Anav

Re: [Serious] As Long As You're Getting An Education...

No, my little acerbic llama, there is no flaw in the argument.

The point about the Oppenheimer story is that he turned out to be an accomplished physicist of Nobel caliber who contributed greatly to the field. Instead, he could have been a jailbird and later a petty criminal, or maybe a major criminal. Which was better for society?

The morality, or lack thereof, surrounding the first atomic bomb is irrelevant. It wasn't his place to make policy, and he didn't make it. You may as well blame Einstein, too. From the perspective of the day, he was one of the nation's leading physicists summoned to play a role in a national mission of great strategic importance.

The bottom line here is simple. If a young person commits an offense, especially a young person working towards a career, are we better off with a knee-jerk reaction that destroys his future, or are we better off carefully weighing the prospects for rehabilitation? Which version of those possible outcomes would you rather meet on a dark deserted street some day -- the college graduate with a career, or the ex-convict who's lost all hope?
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

I get that. But this is not an arbitrary judgment based on social strata, like some aristocrat being let off in circumstances where a common peon wouldn't be. This seems more like a rational judgment of where you draw the line on destroying what might be a promising future, to the possible detriment not only of the accused, but of the society making the judgment.

Of course on the surface the sentencing is not based solely on social strata but on the facts specific to the case. Judges do however have inherent bias whether they are cognizant of it or not. As most if not almost all judges were once a young man in university then one cannot deny the correlation to a bias perceived or not. The very fact you went to university and susceptible to a very mild form of intelligentsia means you are likely to be more sympathetic to this guy in this thread for example. To deny these factors is naivety of human nature not commensurate with your education.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

The bottom line here is simple. If a young person commits an offense, especially a young person working towards a career, are we better off with a knee-jerk reaction that destroys his future, or are we better off carefully weighing the prospects for rehabilitation?

And he is different than some guy starting out his career by working part time at McDonalds how?


urbanriot
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join:2004-10-18
Canada
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reply to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:

Did you also miss the fact the victim said she wants to get back with him?

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by Wolfie00:

The bottom line here is simple. If a young person commits an offense, especially a young person working towards a career, are we better off with a knee-jerk reaction that destroys his future, or are we better off carefully weighing the prospects for rehabilitation?

And he is different than some guy starting out his career by working part time at McDonalds how?

First of all you're assuming that the McDonald's guy of the same age would have been treated differently. It's back to your social discrimination argument, for which there is no evidence. In fact there's not even a premise -- the kid is just a junior undergrad, not a friggin' faculty member! Yes, I sympathize with the guy to some degree, but not because he's some sort of fellow academic! I sympathize with him because he's just a kid.

Justice is not about treating everyone the same way. It's about making appropriately balanced judgments, taking into account all the facts and specifics including prospects for rehabilitation, which is especially critical for young people. That's why judges have such a wide range of discretion.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

graniterock
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join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
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Through my job, I've known people with little or no "promising future" get conditional sentences first go through the justice system. Criminal history, pleading guilty and willingness to work with the crown make a big difference. What I was surprised with is the leniency of the no contact order. Judge would have been justified to effectively make him change schools.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to Jackorama
said by Jackorama:

It's funny in a way that people think because one attends and completes the Partner Abuse Response Program that they are cured. Sometimes it works if the person really wants it too and sometimes it doesn't, but they still completed it.

It's also funny how when people have no argument they make up false statements which they then proceed to counter.

The situation you describe is EXACTLY why the probation supervisor is given the authority to order other programs and treatment, which was already addressed in my response..

said by urbanriot:

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

Oh yeah? Do they also almost always try to get their abusing spouse charged with imaginary offences, like this one did? Do they also almost always cooperate with the cops to get their spouse charged and convicted before going back to them?

I guess that's what you get for studying the deep psychology of spousal abuse an hour a week for 20 weeks a year on Saturday night from home. Did you get University credits for that?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
No, unfortunately they don't hand out university credits while experiencing real life, which usually comes after you spend all your time and money learning about theory.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

The point about the Oppenheimer story is that he turned out to be an accomplished physicist of Nobel caliber who contributed greatly to the field. Instead, he could have been a jailbird and later a petty criminal, or maybe a major criminal. Which was better for society?

while it was an intriguing story, it comes from one person with zero evidence it actually happened.

He developed an antagonistic relationship with his tutor, Patrick Blackett, who was only a few years his senior. While on vacation, as recalled by his friend Francis Ferguson, Oppenheimer once confessed that he had left an apple doused with noxious chemicals on Blackett's desk. While Ferguson's account is the only detailed version of this event, Oppenheimer's parents were alerted by the university authorities who considered placing him on probation, a fate prevented by his parents successfully lobbying the authorities.

could it have actually happened???...sure...could it not have happened???...absolutely...but i'm not really so sure i would have used that story as an example...i get your point, but i would have chosen a more "credible" and verifiable example.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
Actually, no, DJ, there's more to this than just the Wikipedia version, and Oppenheimer previously had other such antagonisms in his life and suffered from deep depression. It only accentuates the fact that throwing him in jail would probably have driven him to even more extreme acts, while giving him a break turned out one of the most prominent physicists of the 20th century.

We humans are complicated creatures, and "lock 'em up and throw away the key" and "hang 'em high" is not always the answer to every wrongdoing, and not in our best interests. And as I'm sure you know by now, I support stiff penalties when they're warranted, including no possibility of parole, ever. The operative phrase here is, "when they're warranted."

graniterock
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London, ON
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reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

said by urbanriot:

No, unfortunately they don't hand out university credits while experiencing real life, which usually comes after you spend all your time and money learning about theory.

1. Cops is an entertainment show. What you see was chosen for it's entertainment value not if it is typical. It certainly doesn't trump real life experience nor university credits.

2. Yes... some woman do defend and stay with their abusers. The reasons for this can be complex and are not straight forward. Some stay due to attachment reasons. Some have yet to accept they are in a cycle of violence. Some do so out of fear. (In the case of COPS: Are you going to talk poorly of a man who you think could kill you to a camera when he is 20 ft away?) Platitudes that woman just defend men aren't really helpful. Abusive relationships are certainly not "normal". They develop over time and progress in a way that isolates the victim.

How police approach domestic situations has changed over the last 20 or so years. The big change is that police do not require a victim to request charges nor allow them to waive charges. The abuser is arrested and charged and police request social service intervention with the victim. This helps to sort out the attachment issues faster, educate about the cycle of violence (yes it can happen to you) and to make a safety plan with realistic and safe options.