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Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON
reply to joeblow3

Re: [Serious] As Long As You're Getting An Education...

Maybe a typical first offence for someone still going to school, but I have read of many first offences that have not had the same offer. Conditional upon completing his probation and other conditions are the same probation and conditions he would have to do anyways and have a criminal record if he was not in school. Then he have to wait and apply for a pardon.

Completing his probation and conditions doesn't mean he's not going to hit a woman again when it is all done with. Being 18 you know that hitting a woman is going to get you in trouble with the law. If you don't want that to happen then walk away from the relationship if it is tempting you that much.

There are couples out there that have never had the need to raise a hand in anger towards one another. My husband and I have never raised a hand in anger. Do we get angry at each other sometimes? Sure we do, but we talk it out. Have we ever seen our parents raise a hand in anger towards each other? Never.
--
"Whenever they invent something that's moron proof, someone comes by and invents a better moron."

"Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?"

"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do."


bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

2 edits

said by Jackorama:

Had he not been in school, he would have been burdened with a criminal record.

Unless you've got information that wasn't in the article, that is purely your own assumption. Couldn't possibly have been the long list of character witness letters...


Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON

said by bt:

said by Jackorama:

Had he not been in school, he would have been burdened with a criminal record.

That is purely your own assumption. Couldn't possibly have been the long list of character witness letters, after all...

Your right, but character witness from places like work, teachers, etc. can only talk about his character within that scope. At one of the places my husband worked there was a worker who was a great and friendly worker. He was also a serial rapist who ended back in jail after a rape of a stranger. No one at his work knew and would have even guessed that the guy was a rapist.

There was, a couple of years ago, a guy about 18 or so in Kingston, who was getting young girls to perform sex acts on the internet. He was living at home and his parents were very shocked when he was caught. His parents had no clue.
--
"Whenever they invent something that's moron proof, someone comes by and invents a better moron."

"Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?"

"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do."

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

said by Jackorama:

Your right, but character witness from places like work, teachers, etc. can only talk about his character within that scope.

You're right that it's sometimes flawed. Sometimes.

Sometimes it isn't.

I noticed that neither of your examples mention a judge and prosecution agreeing with the character witnesses, as may be the case here.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to bt

said by bt:

Unless you've got information that wasn't in the article, that is purely your own assumption. Couldn't possibly have been the long list of character witness letters...

meh...i'm sure Russell Williams could have produced a long list of character witness letters too.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to Jackorama

That's cool, but this guy did hit someone. And got punished for it. The appropriate question is what is the punishment that has the most likely best outcome for everyone, including the best interests of society. Hanging a permanent criminal record on someone just starting out in life, or really not even started yet, is likely to turn a promising future down a pretty nasty path, and as a society we have far too many people who have gone down that road.

There's a famous story of another troubled youngster, who at the University of Cambridge was guilty of a much more serious offence -- literally trying to poison his tutor. He could have been expelled and thrown in jail, his life ruined. Instead, university officials opted for leniency and let him stay on and graduate. The youngster's name was J. Robert Oppenheimer, and he never poisoned anyone again. Instead he went on to become one of the most important modern theoretical physicists and was named to be the chief scientist on the Manhattan Project. He developed theories of anti-matter and the gravitational collapse of neutron stars and black holes and was a three-time Nobel nominee. He would undoubtedly have won the Nobel Prize after his gravitational collapse theory was validated, had he only lived long enough.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan


bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to dirtyjeffer

said by dirtyjeffer:

meh...i'm sure Russell Williams could have produced a long list of character witness letters too.

Quite possibly. And I'm not saying it was the reason, only it could be. Whatever the reason for the conditional dropping of the criminal record in this case, the basis for it was a joint submission by the Crown and the defence. So if it was the reason, would the Crown have agreed with Russell Williams' theoretical character witnesses? Would the judge?

The "This really bad-case example could have done the same thing!" argument is intellectually dishonest. It assumes the worst case scenario simply must be true when it rarely is.


Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON
reply to bt

said by bt:

said by Jackorama:

Your right, but character witness from places like work, teachers, etc. can only talk about his character within that scope.

You're right that it's sometimes flawed. Sometimes.

Sometimes it isn't.

I noticed that neither of your examples mention a judge and prosecution agreeing with the character witnesses, as may be the case here.

I don't think character witness would work in the examples I gave. The rapist went to his parole worker right after it happened and confessed. The second one was caught red handed.

When I was first reading the story, I really thought this was a kid that used some poor judgement. Then when reading about him being angry about his girlfriend borrowing notes from a male student and about deleting the pictures from her phone of the marks he left on her, that becomes a control issue that many battered women have happen to them.
--
"Whenever they invent something that's moron proof, someone comes by and invents a better moron."

"Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?"

"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do."

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

1 recommendation

reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

That's cool, but this guy did hit someone. And got punished for it. The appropriate question is what is the punishment that has the most likely best outcome for everyone, including the best interests of society. Hanging a permanent criminal record on someone just starting out in life, or really not even started yet, is likely to turn a promising future down a pretty nasty path, and as a society we have far too many people who have gone down that road.

I guess the fact this decision is being questioned has to do with the accused being in university and by extension possibly a different social strata than other offenders not offered a conditional discharge.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8

I get that. But this is not an arbitrary judgment based on social strata, like some aristocrat being let off in circumstances where a common peon wouldn't be. This seems more like a rational judgment of where you draw the line on destroying what might be a promising future, to the possible detriment not only of the accused, but of the society making the judgment.


IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to Jackorama

said by Jackorama:

When I was first reading the story, I really thought this was a kid that used some poor judgement. Then when reading about him being angry about his girlfriend borrowing notes from a male student and about deleting the pictures from her phone of the marks he left on her, that becomes a control issue that many battered women have happen to them.

Which is why he's also been directed to attend and complete the Partner Abuse Response Program and any other assessment or program his probation supervisor orders.

Did you also miss the fact the victim said she wants to get back with him? Sounds like you harbour more negative feelings toward the guy than the victim herself.

There's something very wrong here, but I don't think it's "the system".


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Wolfie00

I want to adress the serious flaws in arguments here.
First Wolfie, Oppenheimer is known as one of the fathers of the Atomic Bomb, so following your logic if he had been convicted we might not have developed the atomic weapon as we did with all the proliferation and use in Japan........... So what is the downside of having him incarcerated????

Secondly, ironically orderwise, the guy didnt just punch his girlfriend which in plain language is ASSAULT, he punched, ie assaulted her a second time. Getting caught for drinking and driving just once is a very high indicator of alcoholism, imagine twice. In others we already have a repeat offender. Perhaps we should wait before she is punched a third time and lets add kicked for good measure before deciding to protect society.

I dont know about you guys, but if one of my kids was assaulted not once but twice by the same partner, I would be getting my kid counselling to understand why there is no reason on this earth to spend an iota of time more with the ahole, and to address fears and to address any dependency or guilt associations
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

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Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON
reply to IamGimli

It's funny in a way that people think because one attends and completes the Partner Abuse Response Program that they are cured. Sometimes it works if the person really wants it too and sometimes it doesn't, but they still completed it.



Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to Anav

No, my little acerbic llama, there is no flaw in the argument.

The point about the Oppenheimer story is that he turned out to be an accomplished physicist of Nobel caliber who contributed greatly to the field. Instead, he could have been a jailbird and later a petty criminal, or maybe a major criminal. Which was better for society?

The morality, or lack thereof, surrounding the first atomic bomb is irrelevant. It wasn't his place to make policy, and he didn't make it. You may as well blame Einstein, too. From the perspective of the day, he was one of the nation's leading physicists summoned to play a role in a national mission of great strategic importance.

The bottom line here is simple. If a young person commits an offense, especially a young person working towards a career, are we better off with a knee-jerk reaction that destroys his future, or are we better off carefully weighing the prospects for rehabilitation? Which version of those possible outcomes would you rather meet on a dark deserted street some day -- the college graduate with a career, or the ex-convict who's lost all hope?
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan


peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

I get that. But this is not an arbitrary judgment based on social strata, like some aristocrat being let off in circumstances where a common peon wouldn't be. This seems more like a rational judgment of where you draw the line on destroying what might be a promising future, to the possible detriment not only of the accused, but of the society making the judgment.

Of course on the surface the sentencing is not based solely on social strata but on the facts specific to the case. Judges do however have inherent bias whether they are cognizant of it or not. As most if not almost all judges were once a young man in university then one cannot deny the correlation to a bias perceived or not. The very fact you went to university and susceptible to a very mild form of intelligentsia means you are likely to be more sympathetic to this guy in this thread for example. To deny these factors is naivety of human nature not commensurate with your education.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

The bottom line here is simple. If a young person commits an offense, especially a young person working towards a career, are we better off with a knee-jerk reaction that destroys his future, or are we better off carefully weighing the prospects for rehabilitation?

And he is different than some guy starting out his career by working part time at McDonalds how?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
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reply to IamGimli

said by IamGimli:

Did you also miss the fact the victim said she wants to get back with him?

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to peterboro

said by peterboro:

said by Wolfie00:

The bottom line here is simple. If a young person commits an offense, especially a young person working towards a career, are we better off with a knee-jerk reaction that destroys his future, or are we better off carefully weighing the prospects for rehabilitation?

And he is different than some guy starting out his career by working part time at McDonalds how?

First of all you're assuming that the McDonald's guy of the same age would have been treated differently. It's back to your social discrimination argument, for which there is no evidence. In fact there's not even a premise -- the kid is just a junior undergrad, not a friggin' faculty member! Yes, I sympathize with the guy to some degree, but not because he's some sort of fellow academic! I sympathize with him because he's just a kid.

Justice is not about treating everyone the same way. It's about making appropriately balanced judgments, taking into account all the facts and specifics including prospects for rehabilitation, which is especially critical for young people. That's why judges have such a wide range of discretion.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

graniterock

join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
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Through my job, I've known people with little or no "promising future" get conditional sentences first go through the justice system. Criminal history, pleading guilty and willingness to work with the crown make a big difference. What I was surprised with is the leniency of the no contact order. Judge would have been justified to effectively make him change schools.


IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to Jackorama

said by Jackorama:

It's funny in a way that people think because one attends and completes the Partner Abuse Response Program that they are cured. Sometimes it works if the person really wants it too and sometimes it doesn't, but they still completed it.

It's also funny how when people have no argument they make up false statements which they then proceed to counter.

The situation you describe is EXACTLY why the probation supervisor is given the authority to order other programs and treatment, which was already addressed in my response..

said by urbanriot:

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

Oh yeah? Do they also almost always try to get their abusing spouse charged with imaginary offences, like this one did? Do they also almost always cooperate with the cops to get their spouse charged and convicted before going back to them?

I guess that's what you get for studying the deep psychology of spousal abuse an hour a week for 20 weeks a year on Saturday night from home. Did you get University credits for that?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3

No, unfortunately they don't hand out university credits while experiencing real life, which usually comes after you spend all your time and money learning about theory.



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

The point about the Oppenheimer story is that he turned out to be an accomplished physicist of Nobel caliber who contributed greatly to the field. Instead, he could have been a jailbird and later a petty criminal, or maybe a major criminal. Which was better for society?

while it was an intriguing story, it comes from one person with zero evidence it actually happened.

He developed an antagonistic relationship with his tutor, Patrick Blackett, who was only a few years his senior. While on vacation, as recalled by his friend Francis Ferguson, Oppenheimer once confessed that he had left an apple doused with noxious chemicals on Blackett's desk. While Ferguson's account is the only detailed version of this event, Oppenheimer's parents were alerted by the university authorities who considered placing him on probation, a fate prevented by his parents successfully lobbying the authorities.

could it have actually happened???...sure...could it not have happened???...absolutely...but i'm not really so sure i would have used that story as an example...i get your point, but i would have chosen a more "credible" and verifiable example.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8

Actually, no, DJ, there's more to this than just the Wikipedia version, and Oppenheimer previously had other such antagonisms in his life and suffered from deep depression. It only accentuates the fact that throwing him in jail would probably have driven him to even more extreme acts, while giving him a break turned out one of the most prominent physicists of the 20th century.

We humans are complicated creatures, and "lock 'em up and throw away the key" and "hang 'em high" is not always the answer to every wrongdoing, and not in our best interests. And as I'm sure you know by now, I support stiff penalties when they're warranted, including no possibility of parole, ever. The operative phrase here is, "when they're warranted."


graniterock

join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

said by urbanriot:

No, unfortunately they don't hand out university credits while experiencing real life, which usually comes after you spend all your time and money learning about theory.

1. Cops is an entertainment show. What you see was chosen for it's entertainment value not if it is typical. It certainly doesn't trump real life experience nor university credits.

2. Yes... some woman do defend and stay with their abusers. The reasons for this can be complex and are not straight forward. Some stay due to attachment reasons. Some have yet to accept they are in a cycle of violence. Some do so out of fear. (In the case of COPS: Are you going to talk poorly of a man who you think could kill you to a camera when he is 20 ft away?) Platitudes that woman just defend men aren't really helpful. Abusive relationships are certainly not "normal". They develop over time and progress in a way that isolates the victim.

How police approach domestic situations has changed over the last 20 or so years. The big change is that police do not require a victim to request charges nor allow them to waive charges. The abuser is arrested and charged and police request social service intervention with the victim. This helps to sort out the attachment issues faster, educate about the cycle of violence (yes it can happen to you) and to make a safety plan with realistic and safe options.